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webturner
Please help! My question is, can the police make you use evidence they gather to identify the driver when they state that it is not for that purpose?

Detials: I got a NIP (1), 99mph in a 70, on the A74(M), withing 14 days, from a Scottish constabulary. My partner an I where sharing the journey from Scotland to home, I'd been advised to stop regularly, walk about and change driver because I had some serious back problems. Because we didn't record every junction and services we stopped at and who was driving, I had no idea of who was driving at the time of the alledged offence. We also both agree that we where never doing 99mph.

My response (2) said can't identify driver, gave details of medical reasons, contested the alledged speed and gave name, DOB and address of both possible drivers. Did not complete and return form.

Police response (3) with enclosed photos and stated:
"I would take this opportunity to advise you, however, that the photographic evidence which we obtain is purely in order that we can clearly identify a particular vehicle and not for the purpose of identifying a particular driver or occupant." (their emphasis) then reiterated S172 and said i was required to furnish forthwith the name and address of the driver within 7 days of letter.

My response (4) I stood by my original letter (2) saying I cannot identify the driver, and "As you have stated the evidence you obtained is not for the purpose of identifying a particular driver or occupant". Then that I couldn't complete the form, no part is relevant. Gave a list of possible drivers giving all details the form would require, including phone number with a warning that it is recorded (work number), "By providing this list I have discharged by legal obligation under section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988", signed and dated.

Police Response (5) Says the photos are of "sufficient quality" for me to identify. That I need to furnish details forthwith. Naming possible drivers is not sufficient from a list doesn't satisfy my obligations, no response by 1st Feb (within 7 days) then an enquiry forwarded to local police station for contravention of S172, report forwarded to Procurator Fiscal.

To help identify the canera type: The photo evidence is 3 pictures on an a4 sheet, one wide angle (about 4 lanes wide) with + on car plate, black banner at top with time in HH:MM:SS format, FL06 (the F is above the L) on the left, a serial number centered, "* 099MPH" on the right. On the second line Date in DD-MM-YY format on the left, and "0424.7m" on the right. The other two are closer (about 1 lane wide) the + centered on passenger, taken a few seconds later with the samle black banner except for the speed and distance information.

Steve.

southpaw82
If you intend to rely on the defence of reasonable diligence in being unable to identify the driver then how do you expect a court to view as reasonable your assertion that you won't use the photo to ID the driver? Just because the police say it is not produced for that purpose this does not mean that it can not be used for this purpose.

If the photo clearly identifies the driver then at the moment you are heading for a s. 172 conviction. What else have you done to try to ID the driver?

Since you're in Scotland you could just name the driver but not sign the form.
Pete D
It is your responsibility to identify the driver, you have a photo to assist you to do that, do you recognise the person driving the car. The scamera can not use the photo to ID you but you can.

If you complete the NIP WIZARD then it would tell you that there is an option in Scotland of retruning the NIP unsigned but they most probably will send your local BiB to visit you at home several times until they find you in and then you have to fess up. After you have completed the Wizard, all pages and selected the add to thread option, wash off the ID and Reg from the photo of the ping and post it in your thread so others can judge the quality of the ping for any potential errors. The instructions are in the FAQ's. Pete D
andy_foster
The 'camera' sounds like an LTi 2020 laser speedmeter (lidar) linked to the Lastec Concept Dvd system (updated version of the Lastec local video system).

Regardless of whether you are the person keeping the vehicle or any other person, if you have been served a notice, on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police, requiring you to do so, you must provide any information that is in your power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver - if you know who was driving, that includes identifying the driver. If you have seen photographs which show you who was driving, then that is information that is in your power to give.

Your post refers to their disclaimer regarding the purpose of the photo, rather than any indication that it does not show you who was driving. If the photo is clear enough that either of the possible drivers can tell which one of them was driving, you will be convicted of failing to provide information (6 points, MS90 endorsement code and several hundred quid fine) if you do not comply.

If you are the PKV, then if you fail to name the driver you would have to be able to prove (on the balance of probabilities), not only that you don't know who was driving, but that you could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained that information.

N.B. We are not unsympathetic - s. 172 is the only exception to the 400 year old privilege against self-incrimination, but we give the best free (unqualified) legal advice we reasonably can, not a cuppa tea and a sympathetic ear - see your Mum for that.

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.
webturner
It wasn't me driving so the NIP Wizard just tells me to complete the form and goes no further. I'll scan the pics and upload them this evening.
Pete D
You forgot to select the option of adding the wizard output to your tread. Pete D
webturner
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2008
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A74(M) Glasgow - Carlisle Road, southbound carriageway near to Whicketthorn Overbridge, Kirkpatrick Fleming, Dumfries and Galloway
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Recorded
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - See first post in thread

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.

    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:55:51 +0000
andy_foster
QUOTE (webturner @ Wed, 28 Jan 2009 - 13:40) *
It wasn't me driving so the NIP Wizard just tells me to complete the form and goes no further.


It tells us that you are the PKV, which is no longer relevant as you know who was driving.

If you don't name the driver, you will almost certainly get 6 points for keeping your mouth shut. If you do, that has no real evidential value, but will result in the driver receiving their own notice.
If you run the NIP Wizard as if you were the driver, you will get the same generated advice as they will if they run it after receiving their own NIP.


QUOTE
I'll scan the pics and upload them this evening.


The general advice is to remove any identifying details (registration number, reference number, etc. - although in your case, D&G can probably identify your case from your letters.
webturner


I've removed the identifying information, but as you say i can probably be identified anyway. However there is nothing from me here that a) isn't true b) they don't or won't know... Is there any other reason i should be worried about anonimity?

Back of NIP filled in and ready to send tomorrow.
webturner
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2008
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 32 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A74(M) Glasgow - Carlisle Road, southbound carriageway near to Whickthorn Overbridge, Kirkpatric Fleming, Dunfries and Galloway.
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Recorded
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Driver at time, register keeper was passenger.
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Details as per previous posts. NIP wizard run as driver

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but returning it unsigned. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:23:26 +0000
Pete D
You had travelled a far distance in the 7 seconds between the ping and the second still photo. I have seen several cases from this bridge and comparing them and the speed does not identify a defence, sorry. The ping although at an angle is relatively clean and no errors. You could go unsigned but they are getting pretty hot on this now and several calls to your home are made until they find you in. Pete D
NeilNeil
QUOTE (Pete D @ Wed, 28 Jan 2009 - 20:15) *
You had travelled a far distance in the 7 seconds between the ping and the second still photo. I have seen several cases from this bridge and comparing them and the speed does not identify a defence, sorry. The ping although at an angle is relatively clean and no errors. You could go unsigned but they are getting pretty hot on this now and several calls to your home are made until they find you in. Pete D


Could the police also identify you driving by ANPR and pull you over to ask the question?
Since I get pulled over by the police on average every 6 months already this would be an issue for me.
Gaza
QUOTE (Pete D @ Wed, 28 Jan 2009 - 20:15) *
You had travelled a far distance in the 7 seconds between the ping and the second still photo.


How can you possibly say this from a wide shot and a close zoom?
Pete D
What part of "I have seen several cases from this bridge and comparing them and the speed does not identify a defence" did you not understand. Pete D
webturner
I'm curious about how you determined distance traveled too, did you use the the angle of the lane as it curves under the bridge?

I have some stills, would the police have a full video?

The problem is the 6 points my partner already has, 91+ mph is ban territory for her, 90 is more points, but at least she can still do her 1 hour drive to work.
Pete D
I have other stills from this location and comparing timings between shots and the change in the angle and curve of the road markings it does support a speed in excess of 90. The ping appears clean so it stands. Yes the scameras have a full session video. Regards Peter
320d
I believe courts take into consideration work when deciding on a ban. If there are no alternatives for her to get to work (taxis uneconomical, you work longer hours, no public transport), then she might not get a ban... caveat - this is just my belief, I am not a legal eagle!
webturner
Many thanks for your help so far, we will do another NIP wizard when one for my partner comes in the post.

Steve
glasgow_bhoy
99 could get her 5 points and a hefty fine.
webturner
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2008
Date of the NIP: - 34 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 36 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A74(M) Glasgow - Carlisle Road, southbound carriageway near to Whickthorn Overbridge, Kirkpatric Fleming, Dunfries and Galloway.
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Partner
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - She was the driver at time, I am the registered keeper and was the passenger.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but returning it unsigned. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:48:47 +0000
The Rookie
As the wizard says, unsigned is the advised way to go in Scotland, so you (or preferably someone else who will then write and sign a letter FOR YOU – which you keep - saying they filled it in) fill in all the details and return it unsigned.

Two things to be aware of:-
1/ They will call out your local plod to try and serve a verbal S172 request on you, if they do this you have to tell them, so you need to avoid them, be not in, and not return their requests for you to call, if you are in England then its worth asking the plod (if cornered) if they are authorised to serve this request for this Scottish constabulary, if they can't answer yes (even though they almost certainly are!) then you do not have to answer (any requestor has to be authorised by a chief of Police)
2/ There is no case law (In Scotland) that says the S172 response has to be signed, at some point the PF's offices may decide to go for a test case to set case law, in which case the penalty (if it succeeds) is 6 points and a circa £300 fine, my opinion is that until they see 'too many' unsigned they won't try for a test case as it will create publicity telling people about the 'loophole', but I think it may happen eventually.
Simon
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