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320d
Cruising along today around 65 on the A5 and I come up on the back of some slower traffic. Not much around, so I accelerate and glide past another car at maybe 70-75. The guy in the other car is pulling strange faces and pointing up. Large bridge, colourful van. Oh dear.

So my questions are:
- I didn't seen any tripod or anything outside the van. Can I be caught from inside? It would have been forward facing too.
- are two cars side by side any defence?
- would being in the middle lane or far side of the road be any defence?
- the car belongs to a dealer (we signed the disclaimer). Of course I don't trust their admin totally. Is there any way to fins out sooner if i've been caught?
- my wife and I did switch a few times and passed a few of these vans. What sort of evidence would we be likely to see to confirm who was driving?
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 22:52) *
- I didn't seen any tripod or anything outside the van. Can I be caught from inside?

Yes.

QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 22:52) *
- are two cars side by side any defence?

No.

QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 22:52) *
- would being in the middle lane or far side of the road be any defence?

No.

QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 22:52) *
Is there any way to fins out sooner if i've been caught?

By asking the person who is registered as the keeper of the vehicle whether they have received a Notice of Intended Prosecution within 14 days of the incident.

QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 22:52) *
- my wife and I did switch a few times and passed a few of these vans. What sort of evidence would we be likely to see to confirm who was driving?

They might send a couple of photos if you were to make a polite request, although they are under no obligation to do so.

But if you were pinged over the enforcement threshold and at the location in question, and bearing in mind that the NIP should specify this location reasonably accurately (ie it should be sufficient for an accused to recall the incident), then even if the photos proved 'inconclusive' as regards clear identification, to [falsely] claim that you did not know who was driving could see you facing more a more serious allegation.

320d
Thanks Nemo.

I appreciate the seriousness of providing false statements.

If I go down the route of asking for more evidence, calibration details etc., does this mean I could no longer accept a fixed penalty?

Can an English court endorse a Northern Ireland licence?
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 23:42) *
If I go down the route of asking for more evidence, calibration details etc., does this mean I could no longer accept a fixed penalty?

Not at all - subject to the police receiving confirmation of the driver at the time of the alleged offence, a fixed penalty will either be offered or it will not. And if it is, it would be the choice of the recipient whether it is accepted or not.

And note that whilst 'evidence' might be requested at this stage, the police (or prosecution) are under no obligation to provide copies of anything until the accused has been summoned and a plea of not guilty has been entered.

QUOTE (320d @ Sun, 25 Jan 2009 - 23:42) *
Can an English court endorse a Northern Ireland licence?

No. But you can apply for a UK counterpart to your NI licence by completing a D9 form - available for download here - which would allow participation in the GB fixed penalty scheme.
320d
Thanks again Nemo.

QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 07:32) *
Not at all - subject to the police receiving confirmation of the driver at the time of the alleged offence, a fixed penalty will either be offered or it will not. And if it is, it would be the choice of the recipient whether it is accepted or not.

And note that whilst 'evidence' might be requested at this stage, the police (or prosecution) are under no obligation to provide copies of anything until the accused has been summoned and a plea of not guilty has been entered.


So in the event that they don't provide anything to help identify the driver, do they summons the registered keeper? If so, what happens when the car is registered to a garage and I've signed a disclaimer? Will this be passed on to me, or does the real keeper still have liability?

QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 07:32) *
No. But you can apply for a UK counterpart to your NI licence by completing a D9 form - available for download here - which would allow participation in the GB fixed penalty scheme.


Oh, does that mean that I couldn't accept a COFP if I don't have a GB counterpart? I was assuming that I would pay the fine, but receive no endorsement? (Naturally I will declare it to the insurance company.)
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
So in the event that they don't provide anything to help identify the driver, do they summons the registered keeper?

Anyone (not just the RK) who has received a requirement under s.172 Road Traffic Act 1988 to provide details of the driver of a vehicle at a particular time and place and who fails to do so is likely to be summoned for failing to furnish (irrespective whether or not the police has provided any photos which may have assisted with identification).

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
If so, what happens when the car is registered to a garage and I've signed a disclaimer?

What disclaimer ?

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
Will this be passed on to me, or does the real keeper still have liability?

If the 'garage' was the Registered Keeper, then the 'garage' would be served with a requirement to provide the details of the driver. To comply with its statutory obligations, the 'garage' would be required to nominate the person believed to have been driving / keeping the vehicle at the material time.

In due course, that person would receive their own NIP / s.172 request. And so the cycle would continue until such time as either a driver 'fessed up, or the recipient of a s.172 request failed to respond or was unable to nominate a driver.

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
Oh, does that mean that I couldn't accept a COFP if I don't have a GB counterpart?

AIUI, the only reciprocal arrangement between GB & NI exists with respect to driving disqualifications, not endorsements.

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
I was assuming that I would pay the fine, but receive no endorsement?

Wishful thinking..

If you were unable to accept a CoFP because you were a non-GB licence holder, then the matter would default to a court appearance. Whilst it may be that the fine imposed would be comparable to a fixed penalty (although not necessarily), you would also be liable for court costs plus the mandatory £15 Victim Support Surcharge. In addition, a 'ghost' licence would be created for you which would carry any penalty points imposed by the court.
Hotel Oscar 87
QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
Thanks again Nemo.

QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 07:32) *
Not at all - subject to the police receiving confirmation of the driver at the time of the alleged offence, a fixed penalty will either be offered or it will not. And if it is, it would be the choice of the recipient whether it is accepted or not.

And note that whilst 'evidence' might be requested at this stage, the police (or prosecution) are under no obligation to provide copies of anything until the accused has been summoned and a plea of not guilty has been entered.


So in the event that they don't provide anything to help identify the driver, do they summons the registered keeper? If so, what happens when the car is registered to a garage and I've signed a disclaimer? Will this be passed on to me, or does the real keeper still have liability?

No, they summons the person nominated as the driver at the time. In practice, currently, most forces, in line with ACPO policy, will disclose still photos lifted from the video evidence to "assist you in identifying the driver at the time" - which I'd suggest is the phrase to use as there are still those that get prickly about being asked to produce "evidence" or "proof" ahead of a court appearance and the entering of a "Not Guilty" plea.

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 08:51) *
QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 07:32) *
No. But you can apply for a UK counterpart to your NI licence by completing a D9 form - available for download here - which would allow participation in the GB fixed penalty scheme.


Oh, does that mean that I couldn't accept a COFP if I don't have a GB counterpart? I was assuming that I would pay the fine, but receive no endorsement? (Naturally I will declare it to the insurance company.)

Correct. Although information about points awarded in the two jurisdictions (NI and UK) are shared there is currently no means for a UK court to endorse an NI licence or vice versa. However, as nemo has suggested by applying for a UK counterpart licence you can take advantage of the fixed penalty scheme. This will mean that the obligatory 3 points (if, indeed, you are offered a fixed penalty) will then be added to your UK counterpart. However, the DVA, will also be notified of the fact that you have incurred points in the UK.
320d
Thanks again.

Is there a time limit to accept the COFP (if indeed I get one)? Just a slight concern that I could miss this option if I'm waiting on a new counterpart from the DVLA.

In terms of the aftermath of accepting an SP30, is there much these days? I know to check/declare it on the insurance. Do any hire car companies worry about a single SP30? Anything else to look out for?
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 09:21) *
Is there a time limit to accept the COFP (if indeed I get one)?

Officially, it 28 days from date of issue.

That said, it a polite phone call explaining the situation may see the police offer a short extension.

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 09:21) *
Do any hire car companies worry about a single SP30?

I can't speak for all hire car companies, but I very much doubt that many (if any) would give a monkeys about a single SP30.
320d
Ah, the irony of selling a Porsche recently and then potentially being caught speeding in an automatic diesel! rolleyes.gif

Thanks again for all the replies.

I do find the whole process fairly uninspiring. I apprecaite the need for speed limits. I just don't believe that for how I was driving, that any traffic officer would have stopped me. I witnessed plenty of locals way over the limit on other parts of the same road. So the only people they are catching are the non locals like me, slightly over the speed limit, who don't know where to watch out. The real offenders, who should be spoken to, are missed by this method of policing.
Pete D
What what the speed limit on that section of road ?????????? Pete D
Hotel Oscar 87
60

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 10:54) *
The real offenders, who should be spoken to, are missed by this method of policing.

Whatever gives you the impression that this actually is a "method of policing" rather than a form of taxation?
320d
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 11:00) *
Whatever gives you the impression that this actually is a "method of policing" rather than a form of taxation?


Good point.
320d
One more question. If the registered keeper gets the NIP and indicates it was me (as the person who signed the disclaimer), do I receive a new NIP? I.e. do I also have to verify that I was indeed the driver?

I don't want to miss the opportunity to ask for confirmation snaps of who was driving. So just wondering if I lose this ability once the first NIP is returned?
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 14:10) *
One more question. If the registered keeper gets the NIP and indicates it was me (as the person who signed the disclaimer), do I receive a new NIP?

If nominated, you will receive your own personalised s.172 request to provide driver details.

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 14:10) *
I.e. do I also have to verify that I was indeed the driver?

Yes. Because to prove driver identity, the police require a statement which purports to be signed by the accused that the accused was the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

Another person's nomination of a driver does not meet the evidential requirements for driver identification.

QUOTE (320d @ Mon, 26 Jan 2009 - 14:10) *
I don't want to miss the opportunity to ask for confirmation snaps of who was driving. So just wondering if I lose this ability once the first NIP is returned?

No.
320d
Ah, my own personal s.172 and maybe some snaps. Do they offer a framing service?

Seriously, thanks again. It's nice to know what the process is. Now the wait to see if they did get me (or indeed the wife elsewhere as neither of us knew about these laser/video combos), or if by some quirk of fate I was below the 'interested' limit for that day, they were having a coffee, or they just failed to get a reading.
320d
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2009
Date of the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 16 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5 West towards Shrewsbury (LC), FC12 West Felron
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Temporary keeper - car is a courtesy car.
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Recorded 69mph in a 60mph limit. Fixed penalty offered.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:08:48 +0000
320d
Well, the dreaded NIP appeared on my doorstep this morning.

A few questions:
- the name on the NIP is slightly incorrect, I presume this insignificant and not a defence
- the first NIP will have gone to the dealer who owns the car, who then named me. Does it matter that my NIP is dated 15 days after the alledged offence?
- my licence is from NI, so I will need to apply for a GB counterpart. My licence is still showing as my former address in NI (my parents address, which I can still use). The NIP is addressed to my normal residence in London. Is this going to be a problem?
- Should I try to update the address as part of the GB counterpart? Or can I leave it as is (my preference)?
- 69 in a 60 seems lower than the potential incident I remember, so there is genuine doubt as to the driver at the time. If I ask for help in identification of the driver, does this give me any extra time to accept the COFP, or is that still fixed at 28 days?
- is S84 RTRA 84 Sch 2 RTOA 88 & Local order the correct legislation?
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
- the name on the NIP is slightly incorrect, I presume this insignificant and not a defence

Slightly incorrect ? No, it won't be of any significance.

QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
- the first NIP will have gone to the dealer who owns the car, who then named me. Does it matter that my NIP is dated 15 days after the alledged offence?

No. Its only the initial NIP which is subject to the 14 day requirement of service.

QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
..my licence is from NI, so I will need to apply for a GB counterpart.

If you wish to participate in the UK fixed penalty scheme, then yes.

QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
My licence is still showing as my former address in NI (my parents address, which I can still use). The NIP is addressed to my normal residence in London. Is this going to be a problem?

In what respect ?

QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
Should I try to update the address as part of the GB counterpart? Or can I leave it as is (my preference)?

I see no problem with leaving it as is.

QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
If I ask for help in identification of the driver, does this give me any extra time to accept the COFP, or is that still fixed at 28 days?

Not automatically, no. But most SCPs / forces will [unofficially] freeze the clock if they perceive meaningful correspondence to be taking place.

QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
S84 RTRA 84 Sch 2 RTOA 88 & Local order the correct legislation?

s.84 RTRA 1984 = Speed limits on roads other than restricted roads.
320d
QUOTE (nemo @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 21:36) *
QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
My licence is still showing as my former address in NI (my parents address, which I can still use). The NIP is addressed to my normal residence in London. Is this going to be a problem?

In what respect ?

Is there a law that says my licence should state my normal home address (i.e. London, rather than my parents address in NI)? I never changed it out of convenience that my parents haven't moved 20 years, whereas I've had many changes of address while living in England.

Thanks again for the info, much appreciated.
nemo
QUOTE (nemo @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 21:36) *
QUOTE (320d @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 19:37) *
Should I try to update the address as part of the GB counterpart? Or can I leave it as is (my preference)?

I see no problem with leaving it as is.

Thinking about this again, I have a nagging feeling that you can only apply for a GB counterpart if you provide a GB address.

Might be worth checking with the DVLA tomorrow.
320d
QUOTE (nemo @ Tue, 10 Feb 2009 - 22:25) *
Thinking about this again, I have a nagging feeling that you can only apply for a GB counterpart if you provide a GB address.

Might be worth checking with the DVLA tomorrow.


I'll let you know what they say....
320d
You are correct. You need to give a GB address to receive a GB counterpart. However the counterpart they issues coexists and runs parallel to your existing NI licence. There is no need to change the address on the main NI licence.
nemo
QUOTE (320d @ Wed, 11 Feb 2009 - 11:39) *
You are correct. You need to give a GB address to receive a GB counterpart. However the counterpart they issues coexists and runs parallel to your existing NI licence. There is no need to change the address on the main NI licence.

Thought it was something like that..
320d
My NIP also has an FAQ Appendix. One question which seems very topical is:

Q What other information can I have?
A We will not engage in detailed or extended correspondence to enable decisions upon acceptance of this conditional offer of fixed penalty. Copies of photographs and relevant calibration certificates will be supplied on request. Original recorded material can also be viewed upon a request in writing to the above address. Other material of direct ecidential relevance to the case will only be disclosed after a court hearing has been requested and a 'not guilty' plea entered.
320d
Anyone know how long they normally take to return photos? It's now a couple of weeks...
The Rookie
About 10 days seems normal.

Simon
320d
The photos have now arrived. I have four photos.

The first shows the car. The crosshairs are on the front grill. The black bar reads:

TIME F/L 09 LONG-NUMBER * 069MPH
DATE 0557.8M

The second and third again show the car, increasingly closer, but with no speed indication.
The final photo appears to be an enlargement of the third (closest) photo.

The interior of the car appears dark in all photos. It's dark to the point where the passenger is completely indistinguishable from the black seat. The driver is little more than a slightly lighter blob where the face would be. Also visible, appears to be a striped sleeve, but this is not conclusive with what we were wearing that day.

The accompanying letter states:

"The duty to provide the driver or other information is absolute. So far as individuals are concerned, the law requires the keeper to be aware of the identity of the driver at all times (Sec 172). Failure to supply the information is an offence under section 172 (3) and on conviction a fine of up to £1000, disqualification, and/or obligatory endorsement. You may have a defense where you cannot with "reasonable diligence" name the driver. It will not be a defense to argue that the driving was 'shared', neither being able to remember who was driving at the time.

'Reasonable diligence' would be a matter for consideration by the court, who will need to be persuaded that the failure to name the driver is genuine. I appreciate that the above response is formal, but it is intended to clearly state the facts as this may lead to some form of legal liability."


I have checked credit card statements and this shows that we bought fuel approximately 6 minutes prior. I had paid for the fuel and she had driven from the station. However, she was feeling unwell, so we had changed driver a few miles later. I can show that the fuel station is a few miles before the camera site. We can also show that we stayed at a hotel and this was on the route home and the time supports that we had left early (due to illness).

Is this likely to be viewed as reasonable diligence?

The letter also includes an invitation to view the master photographic evidence. I don't wish to do that as I am in London and the evidence is 250 miles away. Would this harm a "reasonable diligence" defense?

I am very nervous about testing in court, especially as the penalty could be stiffer under s172 than £60/3 points COFP. The balance of probability is that it was me. So if my case is not strong, I am tempted to just accept the COFP irrespective of the travesty.
320d
Anyone? I have 3 days left to accept the COFP if I want to take that route.
davepoth
So, you know who was driving when you left the petrol station, you know where you swapped over so you were driving and you know where the camera site is. Does this mean you now know who was driving the car at the time?
320d

We don't know who was driving. It was roads we were unfamiliar with and we stopped after a few miles at the side of the road. We picked a spot on a stright to give the other traffic plenty of time to see us. Other than that, it was a non distinct spot. It wasn't even in a layby that we could try to trace. It was probably +/- 1 mile from the camera site. My wife was feeling sick, so my attention was more on her than the road while she was driving.

The photos do not show the initial incident I described in the first post. So I can't conclude that I was driving from that either. There are other cars in the first frame, but none that I remember from the 5 hour journey!

320d
Just to close the thread...

I accepted the COFP. icon_sad.gif
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