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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
moreliens
Hi,

I wonder if anyone of you guys can help. I have just received my very first parking ticket. The penalty type is 'Stopped Where Prohibited (on a red route or clearway). I took photos of the sign and my car there but dont know how to attach photos here so will try and describe it.

I parked there today (Saturday). The road had red line for few meters. Then the red line stopped and there is white lined parking bay to fit two cars. The sign next to the bay reads 'Red Route - No Stopping - Monday to Saturday 8 am to 7pm - Except loading max 20 minutes and disabled max 3 hours'. I parked my car there between 11am and 6pm today (Saturday). I thought the sign was related to red route means it only applied to the section of the road where red line was drawn. The rest of the road is 'Permit Holders only Monday to Friday' and is white boxed after this gap for garage entrance on the road. Since it was Saturday, I believed that this white box was okay to be parked in as I thought it was part of the 'permit holders only mon to fri' restriction.

Can someone please help me understand if the red route sign was related to the 'red line' or did that apply to the white box as well? I am trying to figure out if I really made the mistake or the penalty has been issued as mistake.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Andy.
Clint
Hi Andy,

Your circumstances seem to be similar to mine (I originated the thread to which you previously posted) in relation to the colour of the markings and the wording of the sign. I have learnt a lot by reading these forums since I first posted here.

From your description, it sounds as if the markings are correct. Whether or not the PCN was issued incorrectly would depend on other factors, such as the state of the markings (e.g. were they so faded that they were hardly visible?) or any error in the description of the contravention. I found that there are some very helpful people on this website, but they can only help if you show them all necessary information including photographs of both the road markings and both sides of your PCN (with all identifying details blacked out.) Read the FAQ for instructions on how to add photos.

Clint
moreliens
Okay. I have managed to upload the photos on tinypic and here are the two photos:





As you can see in the image above, the red line has got T junction before the white parking bay. There is no red line along the edge in the white parking bay. Is this legal or are the markings incorrect?

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks

Andy
Clint
As I understand it from reading other replies, the sign is correctly worded, and there doesn't need to be any red line inside the white box. However, the red line usually doesn't terminate with a transverse bar if the white box is part of the Red Route. I leave it to the experts on here to give their opinion. But to me (and I've only just started learning about Red Routes recently) it seems as if the transverse bar indicates the end of the extent of the Red Route restriction. Where exactly is the sign? Is it next to the white box itself?
moreliens
Thanks for your reply Clint. I am thinking exactly on the same line as yours ie the red line should not have a T end to it. The sign is next to the white box. On the other end of this white parking bay, there are double yellow lines (as there is a garage entrance) then the rest of the street has white parking boxes / bays for Permit Holders Only Monday to Friday.

If any one can confirm legality of red line with T end then it would be great. Thanks
Anorak
To know what is and is not legal with regard to Red Route signs and lines you need access to the DfT special authorisations given regarding such lines and signs. Sadly these do not appear to be found anywhere online. Red Route PCN's are therefore more difficult to over turn. I advise you ask for all the documents that I advised Clint to request. The tactic is to demand evidence that every sign, line and TMO has legal basis. This is very time consuming and tricky for stressed parking depts to do. They will stall and hope that you lose your nerve but if they are unable to provide the legal evidence you request then you will win at adjudication as they have to show an adjudicator that a contravention has legal foundation. It's possible of course that they may be able to submit such documents and all is in order but to do so may take more man hours than your penalty charge is worth to them.
moreliens
Thanks for your replies. Clint, would you mind sharing the first email that you sent to them challenging informally. I am thinking to write to them tomorrow - would you great to use something similar to what you did - sorry I am bit clueless here.

Would it be good idea to attach the photo as well with the informal challenging so that they can see that the red line has got T end to it?


Thanks
moreliens
I sent them an email last Friday informally challenging them on the penalty notice. I also attached the photo of the red line with T bar. I still have not got a reply from them.

Does it mean they have scrapped the charge? Does anyone know how long they usually take to respond to informal challenge?

Thanks
Neil B
Good question.

TFL in particular seem to have a habit of forgeting things for several months only to have them resurface suddenly.

Not much help - just something we've noticed.

-

moreliens
So they may not come back to me for several weeks and then all of sudden write to me demanding the money?
dave-o
Exactly.

I'm sure some evil little boffin somewhere has calculated that there is a slightly higher chance that a person will pay a bogus fine if they are given a few months for their outrage and impetus to wear off.
moreliens
Is there any timeline by which they must process the ticket otherwise it will become invalid etc? Otherwise they might come back to this 3 years down the line when I would have forgotten everything about this.
Neil B
QUOTE (moreliens @ Fri, 6 Feb 2009 - 13:50) *
So they may not come back to me for several weeks and then all of sudden write to me demanding the money?


Actually I may have misled you there and jumped to a conclusion based on what you said.


Crucially, was this a PCN on the car or by post?

-

moreliens
It was a PCN on the car to which I have informally challenged last Friday but still got no response.
southpaw82
They've got six months to serve an NTO on you.
moreliens
I still have not heard from them. In the meantime I have found this document which shows the rules for Red Route sign - refer to page 83 onwards. I see this as a positive move for me as I am beginning to believe more and more than the red line ending with T bar makes the ticket unforceable.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf
moreliens
Thought to update everyone on how it went so that it is helpful for others in the future.

As mentioned in earlier posts, I informally challenged them via email - they sent a response by post roughly a week or two later. The letter had photos printed of my car at the 'crime scene'. They referred to the red line that I had challenged and replied that the lines were fully compliant with the rules and regulations. I was given one more week to pay discounted rate of £60 otherwise pay in full afterwards.

After much thought I decided not to pay and then started waiting for their notice which would have come with the documents for appeal or formal challenge. Instead a one page letter came few days back - summary of which is as below:

QUOTE
'We have reviewed the case and I am pleased to confirm that due to the incorrect road markings in xxx Road, this penalty charge has now been cancelled. I would like to thank you for bringing this to our notice, these road markings have now been amended.'


Great news indeed. I won in the end. This proved the below about the red route and parking bay adjacent to it:

The red line must not terminate with a T bar when it reaches the red route parking/unloading bay (which can be in white lines or red lines). Also the red line does not have to pass through the parking bay.

Thanks for your help to all of those who responded to my posts. It was my first penalty charge notice which I dont have to pay anymore so the record stays clean!!!!!!!!!!
Teufel
good one !
Anorak
Nice One!.... icon_thumright.gif
RD400E
So have they amended the lining at 'The scene of the crime' ?

Other than that, well done thumbsup.gif
moreliens
They have indeed amended the red line - I noticed last Saturday - the T bar has been removed.
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