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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
giraffe
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2009
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A533 QUEENSWAY WIDNES, >> SPEKE
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Registered Keeper
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - How long does it take an officer to make a judgement that a vehicle is speeding, look through his camera, aim at vehicle, pull trigger to take photo, then then look up to judge next vehicle?

The reason that I ask is that a friend of mine has recieved a NIP from the same camera as I have but timed X minutes later. What makes it interesting is that his NIP has a reference number XXX after mine.

Working on the assumption that the Central Ticket Office process each camera's take as a continuous, uninterrupted batch, this means that the camera in question caught XXX 'offenders' in a maximum of X minutes. Or 1 every 4.5 seconds!!!!!

I'm not a trained officer, but it seems a much to expect a full cycle of 'judgement - look thru - aim - trigger - look up for next victim' every 4.5 seconds. The officer must be able to make very quick judgements. Sounds more like keeping the camera going and waiting: 'zap - zap - zap - got one - zap - ..'.

The road where the alleged offence took place is a 40mph zone over the Runcorn Bridge before going straight into a 50mph zone. I guess what, I was doing 48mph!

The camera was not on my side of the road, but there is a known camera van location in the bus layby on the far side of the opposite carriageway.

What really annoys me is that I was being especially careful that day because the weather wasn't good (very heavy frost overnight), so I'm 99% certain I didn't break any limit that morning. So I'm invlined to fight it.

The thoughts and opinions of the Forum members would be much appreciated.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:34:15 +0000
Hotel Oscar 87
QUOTE (giraffe @ Wed, 21 Jan 2009 - 21:34) *
[b]How long does it take an officer to make a judgement that a vehicle is speeding, look through his camera, aim at vehicle, pull trigger to take photo, then then look up to judge next vehicle?

As has been stated on this forum by those who assert that they are camera operators the time taken could just be a matter of seconds.

QUOTE (giraffe @ Wed, 21 Jan 2009 - 21:34) *
The reason that I ask is that a friend of mine has recieved a NIP from the same camera as I have but timed 7 minutes later. What makes it interesting is that his NIP has a reference number 106 after mine.

This is alog number and does not indicate that 106 others have been "captured" in the time period. The log is recorded to video tape (or on some newer machines a DVD) by the way.

QUOTE (giraffe @ Wed, 21 Jan 2009 - 21:34) *
The road where the alleged offence took place is a 40mph zone over the Runcorn Bridge before going straight into a 50mph zone. I guess what, I was doing 48mph!

Know the road well. Used to visit a company on the industrial estate off the first exit just north of the bridge. Used to spend all my time watching for the Gatso's.

As the Wizard indicates you are more than likely to receive a COFP.
giraffe
QUOTE (giraffe @ Wed, 21 Jan 2009 - 21:34) *
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2009
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A533 QUEENSWAY WIDNES, >> SPEKE
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Registered Keeper
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - How long does it take an officer to make a judgement that a vehicle is speeding, look through his camera, aim at vehicle, pull trigger to take photo, then then look up to judge next vehicle?

The reason that I ask is that a friend of mine has recieved a NIP from the same camera as I have but timed 7 minutes later. What makes it interesting is that his NIP has a reference number 106 after mine.

Working on the assumption that the Central Ticket Office process each camera's take as a continuous, uninterrupted batch, this means that the camera in question caught 106 'offenders' in a maximum of 8 minutes. Or 1 every 4.5 seconds!!!!!

I'm not a trained officer, but it seems a much to expect a full cycle of 'judgement - look thru - aim - trigger - look up for next victim' every 4.5 seconds. The officer must be able to make very quick judgements. Sounds more like keeping the camera going and waiting: 'zap - zap - zap - got one - zap - ..'.

The road where the alleged offence took place is a 40mph zone over the Runcorn Bridge before going straight into a 50mph zone. I guess what, I was doing 48mph!

The camera was not on my side of the road, but there is a known camera van location in the bus layby on the far side of the opposite carriageway.

What really annoys me is that I was being especially careful that day because the weather wasn't good (very heavy frost overnight), so I'm 99% certain I didn't break any limit that morning. So I'm invlined to fight it.

The thoughts and opinions of the Forum members would be much appreciated.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.


An update. My friend had obtained the photographs from Cheshire Police in order to help identification of who was driving at the time. The photos are taken from behind the car at an indicated distance of around 170m. It is impossible to determine from the photographs who was driving the vehicle. The letter from CTO requests details of all possible drivers of the vehicle.

What happens next? Should all of the names & addresses be supplied on a covering letter of on the back of the NIP? Is the onus on the Police to prove who was driving, or will one of the possible drivers be forced to take the hit?


Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:34:15 +0000
Pete D
The onus is on the recipient of the NIP to do everying in there power to identify the driver. Surely you friend knows if he was on that road at that time and that day. Pete D
fatboytim
I haven't been that way for some months,
BUT,
Last time I drove along the elevated section (i.e. were the 'Ford road' becomes the Bridge appraoch.)
the streetlights had been cut down and there were no 50mph repeater signs, making the limit in the area where the streetlight were cut down unenforceable, they were down for many months.

Have the Streetlights been replaced yet?

fatboytim
giraffe
Fatboytim, The streetlights were all still down as I went through. I was travelling from the Bridge towards Speke and it seems that the camera was taking snaps of the rear of vehicles just as they were crossing the start of the 50mph zone (ie where it rises from the 40mph limit on the bridge).

Would appreciate any advice from out there as to if from the rear photo a NIP recipient can't identify who was driving, whether the Police can prosecute if all that can be offered to them is "it was either person A or person B driving".

Thanks,
Giraffe
southpaw82
In those circumstances the police will prosecute under s. 172 for failure to provide. It will then be down to the defendant to prove (on the balance of probabilities) that they could not, with reasonable diligence, have identified the driver.
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