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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Hackett
Hi to cut a long story short i've been done for 41 in a 30 on a road which has a very dubious sign indicating the beginning of the 30 zone. As the photos show it is quite faded however i can't seem to find any legislation saying how faded is too faded.

Here it is thanks for any advice.


Glacier2
If that is the start of a 30 zone should there not be a second sign on the opposite side of the road?

James-76
It should have a red surround as you say and that does not look red and more lite pink to me smile.gif not sure how far you would get if you challenged it though.
Also lookinh there are plenty of street lamps they can say indicated it was a 30 zone.
quickboy
The sign appears to be the terminal one at the start of the new speed limit but there should be another one on the opposite side of the road. What is the speed limit prior to the 30 sign? As for the sign being faded I really dont think there is much defence as it clearly says 30 on it. The experts will be along soon I am sure.
Networkrail
SO if a new speed zone starts eg 40 to a 30 then it has to have a sign at each side of the road?

NWR
quickboy
Yes, there should be another sign opposite AFAIK. Could be the defence you are looking for!
The Doc
Shouldn't the 30 signpost have a NSL or 40 sign on the other side of it? If it's 30 along that road after leaving the roundabout, what is the limit on the roundabout and beyond on the other roads? That sign looks too big to be a repeater.
Anorak
I don't think the faded issue has any distance as the sign can clearly be read even from a distance as in the second photo.

I'm not convinced the siting is as advised by the DfT. Take a look at the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 section 14.18 as that may assist you.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/
Hackett
Thanks for advice guys, however it seems that, this type of road going from a 40 into a 30 only requires one sign - which must be on the left hand side and no more than 20m from the road you are exiting. I have already exhausted this avenue and the only thing i have left is the lack of red around the sign.
Glacier2
If you go before the magistrates I reckon your chances would be 50/50 at best.
slowerdriver
QUOTE (Anorak)
I'm not convinced the siting is as advised by the DfT.

Yes, chapter 3 of http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/.

How would someone turning left on to the road be expected to even notice the sign?
Anorak
QUOTE (Hackett @ Sun, 18 Jan 2009 - 20:24) *
Thanks for advice guys, however it seems that, this type of road going from a 40 into a 30 only requires one sign - which must be on the left hand side and no more than 20m from the road you are exiting. I have already exhausted this avenue and the only thing i have left is the lack of red around the sign.


Look again.....what you say is advised by direction 9.....section 14.18 of the manual says this..

14.18 The placing of terminal signs at junctions as

specified in directions 9 and 10 (see paras 14.10 to

14.17) applies generally to simple priority junctions,

including crossroads. For other types of junction,

such as roundabouts and those controlled by signals,

drivers are likely to require more guidance on the

speed limits in force; it is strongly recommended that

full signing is provided as shown in figures 14-14 to

14-16. This would also aid enforcement where it

might be difficult to establish which is the relevant

road and which is the other road at the junction.

Take a look at figure 14-14 and see what layout is advised.
Glacier2
Figure 14-14 explains it all.

There should be 2 signs. smile.gif
Hackett
Hi huys thanks for the reply if you look at this link and go to the section "signs to indicate the beginning of speed limit" then go to examples you will see that the law only requires 1 speed limit sign when the speed limit is going to a 30 zone. Your right about going up in speed that requires 2 speed limit signs.

http://www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#beginning
andy_foster
You all seem to have missed the point by a country mile.
There is a system of street lighting (presumably complaint) - so the statutory defence for defective speed limit signage (s. 85(4) RTRA 1984) does not apply.

You might be able to claim special reasons not to endorse if you can convince the court that you were misled by the defective signage, but I wouldn't recommend it in this case.
Hackett
The thing is mate...i agree with you but..about half a mile up that road it goes to a 40 zone, its then a 40 for at least a mile and there is no change in the street lighting.
The Rookie
If the road being turned into is a less important road that that being exited there only needs to be ONE sign, however as the guidance says its ADVISED to have two.

As AF has pointed out the road is restricted and theerfore NO TERMINAL SIGNS ARE NEEDED

Any defence would require a number of hoops to be jumped through, is the fading 'de minimis' I believe so, although thats subjective, is a second terminal sign MANDATORY (arguably not) and was the driver reasonable in not knowing he was into a 30 (dependant on two many factors such as nature of road left, street lighting etc etc)

Chances, about 10% of NG I would say.

Simon
andy_foster
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 19 Jan 2009 - 11:39) *
As AF has pointed out the road is restricted and theerfore NO TERMINAL SIGNS ARE NEEDED


Terminal signs are required by law, but that does not create a defence to the speeding allegation.

Compliant (legal) speed limit signage is not required for a successful prosecution, although if there was no signage at all (coming from a higher limit), I would expect the magistrates to either refuse to hear the case on the grounds that it offended their sense of justice (after being told that they could do so), or find special reasons not to endorse and give an absolute discharge.
That said, there is a 30 mph terminal sign (albeit arguably non compliant), which would seem to give sufficient warning to a diligent driver


The fact that the 40 mph section also has streetlights might be a counter to the argument that you should have known that it was a 30 mph limit because of the streetlights, but that argument is not the law, and countering it does not assist unless you can show that you were misled by the defective signage, and that that (rather than lack of observation, or general disregard for speed limits) caused you to exceed the speed limit.

QUOTE
Chances, about 10% of NG I would say.


A bit optimistic, I would say.
The Rookie
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 19 Jan 2009 - 11:57) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 19 Jan 2009 - 11:39) *
As AF has pointed out the road is restricted and theerfore NO TERMINAL SIGNS ARE NEEDED


Terminal signs are required by law, but that does not create a defence to the speeding allegation.


Sorry, but that is what I meant, I should of added the caveat at the end of 'for a succesfull prosecution'.

Simon
bluegolfboy
I believe that the "30" sign should be illuminated by method of a light attached to the same pole as the sign. Lack of light/light in operational condition means that the sign does not conform to requirements. There should also be TWO signs. Street lighting CAN be used to indicate a "30" zone and is accepted as a legal method however if the "40s" in the same area are light in the same manner then you could argue that the lack of signage and the lighting being the same lead you to believe that you were still in a 40mph zone... Could swing either way to be honest...
busman
according to Richard bentley who is on the register of expert witnesses, there must be 2 signs indicating a lower speed limit, especially if turning from one road into another, wether it be a roundabout or not.The highway code states that if the streetlights are no more than 185feet apart then it is an automatic 30mph, unless signs state otherwise.however, Richard Bentley also states that the highway code is guidelines only(just like acpo).He also states that if you are coming from a higher speed zone to a lower speed zone, then there should be square yellow backing boards behind both signs.Take a look at his website.Just type in Richard Bentley and click search.if the courts trust him saying his knowledge of traffic signs and road marking is encyclopaedic, and they rely on him for the infornation and truth, then he is my kind of guy.
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