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Full Version: FPN NIP - 30 in a 35 - Court or not?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
TerryWilson1234
Hi,

Some background:

Several years ago I was camera'd (SP50 - 90ish on NSL Dual Carriageway) and managed through low cunning to get my phone call put through to the 'scamera van department'.

I was amazed to find that simply insisting that I was going to court rather than accepting the FPN was enough to get them to drop the whole thing on the basis of one phone call. They were quite openly highly reluctant to go to court, even though I didn't deny committing the offence. At the time I found a source on the web that seemed to indicate that Scamera vans get all the proceeds from FPNs but none from court appearances. That seemed to explain what had happened to me although I never confirmed it from any reliable source. (Is/was it true?)

This incident has left me with a strong feeling that going to court over camera detected speeding offences is always a good thing. Even if the offender plans to plead guilty. My experience lead me to assume there is some chance it will never get to court and if it does the sentencing guidelines suggest the fine, costs and points won't be too much worse if it does.

That's the background.

Fast forward some years. I accidently set my anti scamera device (cruise control) a bit too high going through a fixed camera I pass twice a day, and got an NIP FPN. 35 in a 30.

So my questions are:

1) Am I right in thinking that merely opting for my day in court is enough to increase my chances of getting 'no further action' for my offence?

2) Is there anything else I can do to cause 'them' difficulty and expense in extracting £60 and three points from me, without causing myself a lot of effort? I won't lie and claim I don't know who the driver is - I'm not lowering myself to the level of the habitual liars who Police us since Cameras cropped up. (One third lie.)

3) Have I got any hope of convincing them to put me on a driver education course in lieu of points?

PS: A colleague in a position of trust stole £7,000 from a client. He admitted it and was cautioned. Wonder why I get a criminal conviction and am now 3 camera flashes away from losing my career while he gets off Scott free?

jobo
a

always worth going to court, it will cost you a couple of hundred quid more if you loose but its a day out and it would cost you more if you took he family to the seaside for the day.

go not guilty and let the b prove it, insist the camera operator/ calibrator turns up to give evidence, they frequently don't show up

Done it three times expecting to loose and won each
southpaw82
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 13 Jan 2009 - 20:22) *
go not guilty and let the b prove it, insist the camera operator turns up to give evidence, they frequently don't show up


QUOTE
a fixed camera


What operator? wink.gif

A course in lieu of points is possible at 35 mph in a 30 if your force does them.
jobo
if you look i was in the middle of changing it to include calibrator , but you were just to quick for me
TerryWilson1234
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 13 Jan 2009 - 20:25) *
A course in lieu of points is possible at 35 mph in a 30 if your force does them.



Thanks to all.

They haven't offered a course in lieu, can I ask? Who do I need to ask?
glasgow_bhoy
They offer it to you upon completion of the S172 request instead of points

you pay for it though but you will have to pay a bit more than the £60 probably- worth it though to be point free and save on insurance
southpaw82
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 13 Jan 2009 - 20:32) *
if you look i was in the middle of changing it to include calibrator , but you were just to quick for me


That's what my other half says wink.gif
andy_foster
Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.
TerryWilson1234
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2009
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - "A44 Oxford Road, Woodstock, Nr Blenheim Palace Ga"
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I set the cruise control to 31 as I always do for this highly visible camera. The thing flashed and when I looked down I was, indeed, close on 40mph which makes the claimed 35 credible IMHO.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.














Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:59:26 +0000

I seem to satisfy the criteria for a Speed Awareness course.

In Thames Valley Police area, are these given to *all* offenders who meet the criteria? The text implies that, but it seems possible that they would use this as a carrot to get people to confess.
Pete D
I set the cruise control to 31 so why was the car doing 35. and you speedo read close to 40. You may be offerred a SAC if you are lucky, but many do not get them as they are over subscribed. Pete D
TerryWilson1234
QUOTE (Pete D @ Wed, 14 Jan 2009 - 19:26) *
. You may be offerred a SAC if you are luck, but many do not get them as they are over subscribed.


http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/faq/defa...on=Q&ID=653

They use the same wording in the document: "If you are eligible for the course you will be offered it.".

I knew it was just a trick to get me to own up and too good to be true.

icon_hang.gif
Pete D
Do not miss the 28 date limit as this can cost you 6 points and a fine of several hundred pounds for 'failure to furnish'. Pete D
TerryWilson1234
QUOTE (Pete D @ Wed, 14 Jan 2009 - 20:07) *
Do not miss the 28 date limit as this can cost you 6 points and a fine of several hundred pounds for 'failure to furnish'. Pete D


I'm actually going to send it off right away in the rather forlorn hope that the sooner I get it in the more likely I am to be at the front of the queue for a Speed Awareness Course.

Anyone know what percentage of Thames Valley Speeders who qualify for Speed Awareness Training actually get it, as opposed to the points?
The Rookie
All who 'qualify' get offered the course, what they do is raise/lower the upper speed threshold to match demand to supply. At 35 you are only just into the prosecution band so are almost certain to be offered the course.

Simon
TerryWilson1234
Spot on. I called the 'scamline' (01865 293355). 100 per cent of qualifying motorists get the course. That should include me. I guess they don't actually need to give me points to make money out of me.


The lecturer better get his facts straight 'cos I'll be reading up on the 1/3 lie and the other spurious 'evidence' used to justify this scam.
TerryWilson1234
QUOTE (TerryWilson1234 @ Thu, 15 Jan 2009 - 18:36) *
Spot on. I called the 'scamline' (01865 293355). 100 per cent of qualifying motorists get the course. That should include me. I guess they don't actually need to give me points to make money out of me.


The lecturer better get his facts straight 'cos I'll be reading up on the 1/3 lie and the other spurious 'evidence' used to justify this scam.



Just to confirm, deffo got a Speeding Awareness Course.
TerryWilson1234
Well, I did the course last night.

A total insult to the intelligence but maybe that's part of the punishment.

The fundamental problem was they simply couldn't make the link between speeding and road deaths in a convincing way. The lecturer claimed a figure of 25pc of deaths caused by speed but no source was quoted. I quoted the TRL323 figure of 7.3pc. Lecturer claimed never to have heard of TRL323! (Incredible given the firm had taken 77 quid off me to teach *me* about speeding - shouldn't they at least learn the basics?)

Incedibly I think all or almost all of the crash examples we were given had damn all to do with speeding, and were down to bad road design. Most occured way below the speed limit!

Much of the lecture was about general good driving which seemed to me to defeat the point of being there, and support the case that speeding is not the sole barometer of safety on the road. Indeed the final comment was something like 'the safest thing you can do is leave a 2 second gap with the car in front' which seems to undermine the whole 'if you drive under the posted speed limit you're safe' mantra they're supposed to be spinning.

One good snippet was that they *DO* place cameras in sites where revenue is highest. We were told that monitoring cameras of some kind are in place to monitor how many speeding motorists go through each camera site and camera's are placeed in the sites where most speeders drive through.

In short the lecture was low on fact, high on tabliod style sensationalism. If you'd taken out 25pc of the slides it could have been a decent 'basic introduction to good driving for morons'. Total waste of time except for saving me three points. Christ 77 quid is enough to join the IAM which would be more effective than the juvinile crap I had to sit through.

PS: I *think* the DriveTech CEO dries a Bentley, and I *think* I parked next to it. If so I notice he's badly scuffed his nearside alloys which kind of sums it up. "Speeding bad, total lack of ability good."

ict_guy
QUOTE (TerryWilson1234 @ Sat, 28 Feb 2009 - 08:22) *
PS: I *think* the DriveTech CEO dries a Bentley, and I *think* I parked next to it. If so I notice he's badly scuffed his nearside alloys which kind of sums it up. "Speeding bad, total lack of ability good."


Probably drunk when he was parking that day! laugh.gif
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