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xyz123
I'll set the scene.

Driving along quite happily in my car, talking to my secretary through the bluetooth car kit I fitted to my car (parrot 3100 if this helps).

Plod driving in the other direction (only noticed them out the corner of my eye) do a u-turn to get in behind me and then pull me over. Said they saw me using my mobile phone, I protested saying its handsfree and legal, they were not interested. Said they saw me on it !?! I said "not on the handset, yes I was talking but through the car kit". Basically said I was lying, they were going to do me for dangerous driving as well if I "said anything else" so was basically told to shut up while they wrote me a ticket.

I now have a conditional offer if fixed penalty slip with 3 penalty points and £60 fine and 28 days to accept it (of which half are left).

I have no intention of accepting it, where do things go from here ? Should I write back and advise why it it incorrect, or just leave it and let them come after me once the 28 days have elapsed ? It says it will go to court and no reminder will be issued.

How they can do this to me is beyond me, issuing tickets and fines to motorists who haven't even commited an offence, can't believe I can be prosecuted on their say so with no evidence angryfire.gif

No points on my license at all, and 9 years NCD - never been in an accident or caught speeding etc - yet I'm targeted under what is basically a scam ?!!

Any advice much appreciated, not a happy bunny mad.gif

PS - the offence was in Scotland and cites the road traffic offenders act 1988, Sect 75 & 76.

Cheers folks !
jobo
in short they are wrong, if it not in your hand your fine, though they seem to have invented a requirement that it must be in a cradle which doesn't exist in law

but they get them selves very mixed up with it

they have prosecuted people for picking the phone to look at the time before now

depends what they are saying you did. if they say it was hand free blue tooth then you will ( should) win in court

if they lie to cover up there own stupidity and say you had it in your hand or to your ear

then its your word against theirs and there's two of them
xyz123
I think their thought process was a case of 'now we've stopped him we need to do him for something' !

They were adamant that I was 'on my phone' as if I was holding it to my ear or something, and had no interest in my handsfree kit or the working of it.

Surely just because there is 'two of them and one of me' it can't be enough to prosecute ?

Otherwise if there were me and two others in a car then it'd be three of us and two of them and no-one with passengers would ever be prosecuted. Do they need additional evidence ? Can I provide additional evidence ?

Key question at this point is whether to respond to the 'offer' in writing or whether to just sit it out ?

Cheers
jobo
it is a bit like that though if you had three passengers the odds would still be in their favour, people have challenged the evidence of two coppers and won , its just very difficult

what does it say exactly on the ticket,

what other evidence were you thinking of introducing?

clean for20years
This site gets more depressing everyday

You comply with the rules and you are still fleeced

GUILTY and if you argue we will find more crap for you to be guilty of


makes you proud to be british smile.gif
jobo
makes you proud to be a pepipooer

at least you stop some off them getting fleeced
xyz123
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 5 Jan 2009 - 14:26) *
it is a bit like that though if you had three passengers the odds would still be in their favour, people have challenged the evidence of two coppers and won , its just very difficult

what does it say exactly on the ticket,

what other evidence were you thinking of introducing?



Well I could demonstrate that I have the handsfree kit fitted which auto-pairs with my phone ? Think I have the user manual somewhere...... ? Other than that, not much I can do really other than suggest that why would I be using the phone in any way other than handsfree when it auto-pairs and I'd need to disable the bluetooth from either the phone or the unit which is both fiddly and time consuming (as well as being pointless............). All seems a bit ridiculous, if it goes to court this would be an absolute joke !

It says on ticket 'using mobile phone whilst driving' which is very broad to say the least. Doesn't use the word 'handset' which may (or may not) be important. has a list of courts on the back, and is signed by a PC. It has date, time and location and the vehicle make and reg number (as in mine, not theirs).

Going back to the original query, do I respond saying why its wrong and I won't be accepting the points, or just leave it and see if I get a summons or reminder ??

Cheers
spanner345
QUOTE (clean for20years @ Mon, 5 Jan 2009 - 15:00) *
This site gets more depressing everyday

You comply with the rules and you are still fleeced

GUILTY and if you argue we will find more crap for you to be guilty of


makes you proud to be british smile.gif

Not that this is much help, but , a few months ago, two policemen saw me using a mobile. The mobile I was seen using, was a mile away at home. There was no phone in the car! Luckily this fact gave me an escape.

The police see what they want to see.......Best of luck.
jobo
the later , have you got a producer built in, commonly you do, if so take you docs in but dont surender your licience

if not, ignore it and a summons will drop through the door some time in the next 8 months ( ithink have a read of the ticket to check

as i said it will depend on if they are stupid ( probably ) and dont know the law or being vindictive

they should have pocket note of what they saw taken at the time or just after to wtire their statement off and to back them up when they get to court, but they are generaly to lazy to bother, which just leaves them with what they wrote on the ticket

which in your case is not very good at proving their case

t some poit before the case sometimes with the summons , but at least 7 days before the hearing you will get a copy of their statement(s) then you will know what your up against
slowerdriver
My sympathies - it sounds outrageous. Just to stoke the flames a little, and motivate you to contest this: coppers when driving solo are forever fiddling with their gizmos and widgets, but since they are the best, most careful drivers who never ever have prangs wink.gif, it is perfectly OK for them to do this but not for the victimspunters. And no expense is too much to catch the EVIL APPLE-EATERS...
xyz123
Thanks guys.

Was seriously thinking about replying advising about the handsfree etc etc and hope that it'd be dropped.

I'll just wait it out then and expect a summons to come through.

Cheers

jobo
sent you a mesage

check the fpn carefuly for what to do if not accepting it

ive always had a producer with mine so had to go in anyway
xyz123
Hi, yes have checked carefully.

Already took my docs in (within first 7 days), not surrendered anything kept all the docs.

Got the PM, cheers.

No mention on FPN at all about not accepting it. Only loads of info about accepting it and threats about prosecution if not paid within 28 days.

Lynnzer
QUOTE (xyz123 @ Mon, 5 Jan 2009 - 15:44) *
Thanks guys.

Was seriously thinking about replying advising about the handsfree etc etc and hope that it'd be dropped.

I'll just wait it out then and expect a summons to come through.

Cheers

You'll probably find this "ticket" is on auto-pilot now. If you ask them what the law is in regards to using the mobile on a handsfree connection they'll sharp build in the requirement to prove, by virtue of two lying coppers, that you had it in your hands. It'll go to court under these circumstances.
If you leave it then it's court just the same.
In my opinion which may entirely incorrect, I think I'd leave it for now. Don't write as it'll not matter a damn what you say. Wait for the summons and see what real evidence they have first.
In the meantime it would do no harm to build up your defence by digging out the handsfree receipt and anything else you can. A statement from the missus and anyone you drive around to say that it's their experience that you always use the bluetooth device whenever you have any requirement for making a call in the car. Wouldn't it be useful if you gave lifts to magistrates..... or priests......
My own motor, a new Citroen C5 has a slot on the fascia to insert the SIM card, then everything is done by the car's system. It's neat, very easy to use, and is entirely irrefutably handsfree.
bama
check the logging facilities of your phone - there may be stuff in there you can use.

what model phone is it ?

I have access to a few software manuals that show what can be done - well beyond what you get in the handbook with the phone. with any luck I may have the manual for your phone.. (sod's law excepted)
jobo
ok just wait for someone else to confirm
xyz123
Phone is a Nokia N95

Car Kit is a Parrot 3100

The phone has bluetooth, as does the car kit and they auto-pair.

Useful advice about the accompanying statements with regards to using the handsfree - I certainly have a few folk who I give lifts to, work colleagues etc who would be able to verify.

I have unfortunately had the car kit now for around 18 months, maybe even longer, so do not have a receipt sad.gif

I may still have the manual though, I am going to have a look. I will also source the web (youtube posibly) for a demo video of the Parrot 3100 in use, as this would surely be useful evidence as it shows there is no need to touch the phone to operate it !



Gaza
A relative is a Special Constable with a Scottish force and was recently on duty with a WPC in a panda car. The WPC spent the entire shift texting while driving. My relative was furious but as she is currently going through the selection process to become a fully fledged BiB she didn't want to damage her chances but complaining.
James-76
I am scared to take my hand off the wheel and put it anywhere near my head/face these days due to certain police officers thinking they have saw something they have not. A visible blue tooth head set that you touch to answer could look like a phone if you are just accepting a call as you are spotted and then no doubt you will be accused of using your phone and then putting headset in when you realised you were spotted. When the law fist came in i was caught on the phone (hard habit to get out of after 10+ years doing it) and shouted at by a decent officer and he let me on my way smile.gif I went and bought a headset that afternoon and have used it ever since. It seems that no warnings are meant to be given now our great leader has bankrupted the country so no more kick up the arse and its straight to jail.
Tancred
QUOTE (James-76 @ Mon, 5 Jan 2009 - 21:05) *
I am scared to take my hand off the wheel and put it anywhere near my head/face these days due to certain police officers thinking they have saw something they have not. A visible blue tooth head set that you touch to answer could look like a phone if you are just accepting a call as you are spotted and then no doubt you will be accused of using your phone and then putting headset in when you realised you were spotted.


As far as I'm aware there is no headset with carkit?

John
ict_guy
It really doesn't matter what phone you've got and what handsfree you've got. If the police say that they saw you holding your phone then you're done for. Their word against yours.

I just hope you can convince the magistrates that it would be unlikely for you to touch your phone whilst your car engine was running since you have invested a couple of hundred quid in a bluetooth system. But, then the BiB would say that maybe it was not paired etc etc

In the end it will come down to your word against theirs - however unfair this potty system is, who do you think the mags will side with?

This country is a bloody joke! I do feel for you and I don't think I'd be responsible for my actions if this happened to me!!
jobo
we dont know thats what the police are saying yet do we
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (ict_guy @ Mon, 5 Jan 2009 - 22:39) *
It really doesn't matter what phone you've got and what handsfree you've got. If the police say that they saw you holding your phone then you're done for. Their word against yours.

But, then the BiB would say that maybe it was not paired etc etc

In the end it will come down to your word against theirs - however unfair this potty system is, who do you think the mags will side with?

This country is a bloody joke! I do feel for you and I don't think I'd be responsible for my actions if this happened to me!!



The OPs phone automically pairs with the handsfree kit so that fcuks that argument from the polis

and I believe that a PF with an ounce of common sense would believe the OP as it would defy logic to risk 3 points, £60 fine and an accident by using the phone handheld instead f using the expensive handsfree. Of course not all PF's have common sense, but most do apparantly
bluegolfboy
Okay...

Read this with some sympathy.

The main issue is that you happily admit talking on the phone even though you didn't necessarily have the actual phone in your hands. Talking on the phone is actually pretty dangerous regardless of whether or not you're holding it. It is a distraction. Driving a car safely requires a lot of concentration. The Police and the Government are actually catering to business at the moment by encouraging people to use hands-free whilst driving but in reality you are posing almost the same risk as you would be by holding it in your hands. The only thing is that at the moment the general feeling is that having two hands on the steering wheel is pretty important (comes from the days of no power steering I believe).

The phone presents an unnecessary distraction. You are lucky not to have been charged with Driving Without Due Care or Attention.

The FPN you have is another tricky one to get out of. You 'accepted' the ticket from the Officer meaning that you accept the offence. Unless the Officer was threatening you with a greater offence for non-acceptance at the time of issuing the ticket then for all purposes you have accepted liability in my opinion.

A 'DISTRICT COURT' which is where you will end up can easily swing either way. It will be a court similar to the Mags. It has 'three' judges who are not really legally minded as such and judge a case on it's merits. Demonstration of the fact you had a 'hands-free kit' fitted could be enough to swing them to your side. I have personally witnessed this in the court and the guy put forward a terrible case. A 'decent' case stating the facts will no doubt result in an 'admonishment'. Your 'attitude' will play a major role in the court, got to come across innocent.

I would personally take my chances on it disappearing. Non-payment will mean that the Procurator Fiscal will make the decision on whether to trial it or not. Depending on where in Scotland you are you would be surprised at what never makes it into a courtroom...

If you are to appear in court then representing yourself is most likely what you will do. It's EASY in the district court and extremely informal. Don't get bogged down or stressed out!!! Possibly go in on a day off and have a look and see how things work, what the sentencing is like and you will be surprised at some of the cases you see and how lenient the results are.

If you took your chances and went to court and were found guilty then I would imagine the outcome would be the original 3 points and possibly a fine of up to around the £200 mark. If it doesn't go to court then your free...
andy_foster
QUOTE (bluegolfboy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 03:04) *
The main issue is that you happily admit talking on the phone even though you didn't necessarily have the actual phone in your hands. Talking on the phone is actually pretty dangerous regardless of whether or not you're holding it. It is a distraction. Driving a car safely requires a lot of concentration. The Police and the Government are actually catering to business at the moment by encouraging people to use hands-free whilst driving but in reality you are posing almost the same risk as you would be by holding it in your hands. The only thing is that at the moment the general feeling is that having two hands on the steering wheel is pretty important (comes from the days of no power steering I believe).

The phone presents an unnecessary distraction. You are lucky not to have been charged with Driving Without Due Care or Attention.


Sanctimonious drivel.

QUOTE
The FPN you have is another tricky one to get out of. You 'accepted' the ticket from the Officer meaning that you accept the offence. Unless the Officer was threatening you with a greater offence for non-acceptance at the time of issuing the ticket then for all purposes you have accepted liability in my opinion.


Utter bollox.
bluegolfboy
LoL... It is now that I've read it again...

Although:

sanctimonious

Adjective

pretending to be very religious and virtuous [Latin sanctimonia sanctity]


smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

The bit about the FPN is stated on the FPN. Acceptance is FINAL. I know it ain't but I was trying to take the angle of what the ticket actually has written on it, in bold writing most likely... I then added my own experience with regards the 'threat' of greater nonsense being invented unless accepted. Been in that position a couple of times now...


Sorry to have offended... If he did contest then Plod most likely would've resorted to the charge of DWDCoA. Been there and I have the great big mark on the licence thanks to it... wink.gif
sharewatcher
QUOTE
The bit about the FPN is stated on the FPN. Acceptance is FINAL


It is not accepted unless it is paid. it has at the moment only been issued.
bluegolfboy
Sorry... I was misleading with that.

I did enter into some kinda debate last week and still seem to be there with my thoughts... Nothing is final until it is paid. You guys are indeed correct.

I wasn't actually implying that 'Acceptance is Final' was actually FINAL. I was only mentioning the impression that it meant. I got confused and muddled the words. No use on here to be doing that and I will in future be taking more time to read and analyse what I have written.
xyz123
Thanks for the additional info guys.

Some very helpful pointers there bluegolfboy, although I must take exception to you saying that I was 'lucky not to have been charged with Driving Without Due Care or Attention' ? dontknow.gif

I was on handsfree and driving quite safely - I make several phonecalls a day from the car (par for the course on the job I do), and have safely driven plenty of miles over the last 9 years without being involved in an accident nor having any points on my license.

If the police were to charge everyone for 'Driving Without Due Care or Attention' for using a mobile on hands free, there'd be no taxi drivers, lorry drivers, and indeed police themselves on the road, so that line of thought is fairly nonsensical and certainly not practical !

Your knowledge of the Scottish Courts is certainly helpful however and I now feel a little more optimistic and have a slightly better idea what to expect, so thanks for your insight on that one.

I can confirm that I HAVE NOT ACCEPTED anything, all I have is the slip with an offer on it and 28 days to pay it IF I ACCEPT IT (which I aren't doing).

I'll ride it out I guess and take my chances. The fact I have a hands-free kit, no other points, and a perfect driving history, combined with the fact I am not stupid and would have no reason to use the phone without the hands-free with would involve killing the pairing with the car kit (hassle in itself), may be enough to convince them of my innocence.
sal_park
Hi xyz123,

can I make a suggestion ? get someone to video you to demonstrate that by doing nothing (i.e. not touching your phone) your phone become hands free as you enter the car ? Perhaps show receiving a call while on the move ? Was the parrot installed by an installer ? would they have a record of this ?

good luck

sal_park
Faraway
Just to add my own thoughts - you say they were travelling in the opposite direction could you indicate or provide evidence to show how long the police had to form a judgement or an opinion that you were using the phone as you travelled towards them? What were the conditions? Light or dark etc? I assume there are no headsets or anything that you wear? So in effect when you receive a call that the only thing that's done is to touch the headset call button on the dashboard when a call comes in which is generally regarded as no more dangerous than switching channels on your radio. If you intend to fight this will probably end up being seen in front of either a sherriff or a Justice of the peace. best of luck.

xyz123
Hi sal_park, no I installed the kit myself, fairly easy to do just be getting in behind the stereo fascia and hardwiring to the battery.

I had it in my last car as well and changed it across when I got a new one.

The police were travelling in the opposite direction, it was a 60 limit road however I'd say I was doing around 45mph, and they would've been doing similar, which I guess equates to a total speed of 90mph - perhaps not the best for making a split second judgement so that may help my cause.

It was daylight, around 11.30am and I'd say conditions were fairly clear. There is no headset or similar, it plays through the car speakers and there is a microphone attachment which is atached internally to my A pillar.

Cheers
bluegolfboy
Photographic evidence of the installation would most probably be required. I 'believe' that this would need to be brought before the PF at the pre-trial diet (introduced as evidence). Please wait on others confirming this as I am not 100% sure.

What I have indeed done is give some 'pointers'. Don't rely on the info for a successful defence. smile.gif

My comment about being on the phone was along the lines of this:

Driving requires concentration. Talking on the phone requires concentration. Doing both at once limits the amount of concentration you can pay to both. There have been a lot of studies carried out into this and the results have not been very favourable.

I, personally, do not have an issue with you talking on the phone. Hell, I still use my hands as I'm a cheap skate... Must say though that over the past year odds I just do not answer! I sure ain't taking on 3 points for nonsense. I use my phone whilst out on the bike, I use the little headphones so that I can listen to music. If someone calls it is actually pretty fun to answer and listen to them trying to make out what I am saying...

Driving without due care could actually have been a charge that you received on that occasion. It's easy enough for them to make it stick. You were lucky, although unlucky at the same time.

As for court... It may never happen. The PF will look at your 'criminal history' and see you are squeaky clean no doubt and forget all about it... The Police could even forget about it although if they've filled out a pink slip I reckon they will need to keep it accounted for.

Again, information. It may not be correct and my opinion is hiding in there too. At the moment you have nothing to worry about as no money has left your pocket. If you have chosen to sit it out then you've made a good choice in my opinion. You can gather info just in case and also get a heads-up on 'when' you introduce the photographs and details of your hands-free kit. There is a legal process to this and if not adhered to the evidence will not be acceptable in the court room. Photos are better than video, the judges sure won't want to watch a video of a hands-free kit in my opinion.

Once the photos are accepted as evidential fact of the installation being present within your vehicle you will be able to use the evidence when you do your own little spell in the witness box. An explanation of how the system is paired, how it cannot be 'un-paired' without serious hassle, the fact it was on (does it come on automatically???) as you have stated you were using it, how easy it is to receive a call, reasons why you would receive a call and the lack of distraction the unit creates... You WILL have the opportunity to question the Police during your appearance. Questioning BOTH officers about areas such as 'which ear/hand the phone was against' for example could be enough to get two different answers and hence cast a little doubt in your favour...

Someone with more experience in court than me will inform you of how to go about all of this, when to do certain things and how to do them. There are other angles yet that need to be considered and other thoughts you will need to process. The actual court appearance will be your own most difficult period as the court will be new to you and no doubt very daunting and confusing which is why I was mentioning going in on a day before your case and having a seat, a listen, a look and get a feel for it all. See who does what and when. A lot of cases are simply a plea of 'Guilty' at the pre-trial diet and are, as such, pretty boring but there are a lot of individuals who present pretty hot cases in them courts. smile.gif

If you ARE considering going into the court before your case then it may be worth going into a different court than the one you will be appearing in. Sounds a little strange and probably doesn't ring too many bells but the judge 'could' notice you and remember your face, hair, style, manner or something about you. When you are in for your actual case he could see the same thing and remember you. Although you haven't been 'tried' before he may assume you HAVE appeared before him before but he just can't remember why... If you have to go to the court as it is the only one local then wear discreet clothing, don't dress up or wear anything that will draw attention. Don't sit there and have a coughing fit or a sneezing fit. Just relax in with the crowd and watch what goes on.
ict_guy
QUOTE (sal_park @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 11:34) *
Hi xyz123,

can I make a suggestion ? get someone to video you to demonstrate that by doing nothing (i.e. not touching your phone) your phone become hands free as you enter the car ? Perhaps show receiving a call while on the move ? Was the parrot installed by an installer ? would they have a record of this ?

good luck

sal_park


What if the Bluetooth function on the phone was off. Could be the phone battery was low and automatically turned this off to save power etc etc etc etc Just because the system is fitted does not PROVE that it was used!
bluegolfboy
Low battery turns bluetooth OFF??? Bluetooth draws less current than making a phone call. If the battery was low in power then making/receiving a call would shut the phone down most probably if the battery was that low it turned the bluetooth function off.

The OP did state that the bluetooth function was ON...

Good to get another angle on it though:


"Just because the system is fitted does not PROVE that it was used! "


I suppose the argument against this would be that 'why not use it?' Definitely easier than holding the phone in your hand... BUT your point is truly excellent and one that will need to be thought about carefully.
Tancred
QUOTE (bluegolfboy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 18:09) *
Low battery turns bluetooth OFF??? Bluetooth draws less current than making a phone call. If the battery was low in power then making/receiving a call would shut the phone down most probably if the battery was that low it turned the bluetooth function off.

The OP did state that the bluetooth function was ON...


Yes, low battery on phones can disable the BT function - while in standby BT does draw more power and hence reduce talktime. I don't think anyone disbelieves the person but there are many reasons why a carkit is fitted and working but wasn't used for a call.

John
jobo
what we still dont know, until the summons and the statements turn up is if they are saying it was hand held, of i they are pushing the law to a point where it doesnt apply, to the use of blue tooth/ hand free
bluegolfboy
I concur...

Could be a new drive now that everyone has bought blue-tooth/hands-free why not ban them??? Make the money and then outlaw the product... Great strategy! smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
ict_guy
QUOTE (bluegolfboy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 19:06) *
I concur...

Could be a new drive now that everyone has bought blue-tooth/hands-free why not ban them??? Make the money and then outlaw the product... Great strategy! smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif


Just looking at the picture of the bike brought back a funny memory - I have a Cardo bluetooth system fitted to my helmet which allows me to make/receive calls on the bike. I remember putting my left hand to the side of my helmet to turn the volume up whilst on a call - just going about 20mph and saw a police car coming the other way. You should have seen the look that the BiB gave me. It looked like I was holding a phone to the outside of my helmet - for a second they really thought that was what I was doing. LOL! Would have loved to take that to court. Mind you, I suppose they could have had me for 1 handed riding (for about 3 seconds).
jobo
cant have you for one handed riding for two reasons

1) i ane a one armed friend who rides

2) it still in the highway code that you can make turn signals by hand
ict_guy
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 19:45) *
cant have you for one handed riding for two reasons

1) i ane a one armed friend who rides

2) it still in the highway code that you can make turn signals by hand


One armed rider? Blimey, that's gotta take some control. You surely couldn't take a test though, since you couldn't walk the u-turn with the bike - and be in control of it!!

The police can certainly do a rider for only having one hand on the handlebar - they'd just make it up to driving without due care and attention.
bluegolfboy
Would sure be 'interesting' if they summoned him to the court for driving whilst holding a phone... smile.gif
ict_guy
biggrin.gif



Blimey, I learn something new everyday. This beats blind golfers this does!!

http://media.putfile.com/One-Armed-Motocrosser
bluegolfboy
OFF TOPIC???

smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
Fredd
QUOTE (bluegolfboy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 21:08) *
OFF TOPIC???

smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif

Indeed - the merciless Delete key awaits further exceedingly-off-topic posts angry.gif
spanner345
QUOTE (ict_guy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 20:21) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 19:45) *
cant have you for one handed riding for two reasons

1) i ane a one armed friend who rides

2) it still in the highway code that you can make turn signals by hand


One armed rider? Blimey, that's gotta take some control. You surely couldn't take a test though, since you couldn't walk the u-turn with the bike - and be in control of it!!

The police can certainly do a rider for only having one hand on the handlebar - they'd just make it up to driving without due care and attention.

There is a one armed rider that competes in hill climb competition, I know a road racer with a leg missing. I have several customers without a full set of limbs.

Often people with a full set of limbs see one missing as a disability. This sort of thinking does not usually apply to the amputees.

See National Association for Bikers with Disabilities. Google N.A.B.D. and learn.

Sorry mods, this is off topic, but it needed to be said!
cjard
QUOTE (bluegolfboy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 03:04) *
The phone presents an unnecessary distraction.



Do you talk to your passengers? What's your take on screaming kids? Is your stereo capable of playing music loud enough to block out sirens? How do you rationalise the inherent hypocrisy of your argument?
hortz
QUOTE (ict_guy @ Tue, 6 Jan 2009 - 17:58) *
What if the Bluetooth function on the phone was off. Could be the phone battery was low and automatically turned this off to save power etc etc etc etc Just because the system is fitted does not PROVE that it was used!


It is the responsibility of the CPS to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the offence was committed. This proof beyond any reasonable doubt is exactly that - it is not simply a case of provide a far-fetched theory and expect the court to be satisfied with it. If the OP can swear under oath that he was using a hands free kit and demonstrate the kit was fitted and its use does not require hand-holding the phone, the above suggestion from the CPS should get laughed out of court! I say shoud because it is a mags court and we all know what they are like...
Catweazle
Quick question for the OP - Did you initiate the call or did your secretary call you?
If you called her, did you pick up the phone to dial her?
If she called you, did you pick up the phone to accept the call?
We've seen cases on here where holding a mobile has been successfully prosecuted even when the phone wasn't held to the driver's ear to talk on it. It seems that courts have accepted that holding a phone constitutes using it and this may form the basis of the prosecution you're facing. If the coppers did see you with the phone in your hand you maybe on shakier ground...
jobo
Do you talk to your passengers?

Not if I can help it, I stopped pick up hitch hikers coz they would just not shut the hell up


What's your take on screaming kids

Should be banned from all locations, Persistent offenders taken it to care and not returned to they are 16


Is your stereo capable of playing music loud enough to block out sirens?

yes and to block people honking at me for cutting them up





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