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dot bert
Hi all, I received a parking ticket for parking in a pedestrian zone. However, on the street where I was parked, which is 2 streets away from the sign, there are no markings or signage, so how am I supposed to know im still in the zone? And as for the sign, it as a bodge job, it is edited with tape, is that allowed? I will add a picture of it.
I also notcied that on the Trafic Penalty Tribunal site, it says this
Failure to sign a Restricted Zone properly (ET05061E)
(A Restricted Zone, which is relatively uncommon, is an area with heritage status where it is considered necessary to keep carriageway and roadside signs to a minimum. A council wishing to establish a Restricted Zone must obtain authorisation from the Department for Transport, permitting them to erect signs indicating entry to the Restricted Zone, throughout which a uniform restriction applies prohibiting waiting at all times. They are also required to put up smaller roadside plates throughout the zone "in sufficient numbers to give adequate information to road users of the waiting restrictions in force....” The usual double yellow lines are then unnecessary.) "
Although i was parked in a pedestrian zone, the PCN said something like
(01) parked in a restricted zone during prescribed hours
I will add a picture of the PCN when i get home.
any help would be great biggrin.gif
Thanks







jufair
Have a look at this link, it explains what you nee for this problem.

http://www.ihie.org.uk/gateway/uploads/Bur...ted%20Zones.pdf

This is what the sign should look like.
The one in your picture should have special authority from the Minister for Transport.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/workin...netimeplate4382

This post has been edited by jufair: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 - 14:06

--------------------
HMS JUFAIR. BFPO63..................
clark_kent
The sign is a 618.3a and does not need authorisation the only thing wrong with it is the dodgy bodge job but unless you have a bus or coach can't see that going in your favour. Its a pedestrian zone not a restricted zone which is a zone you can drive in but not park, where you parked its taxis and BB only so you should not even have been driving there let alone parking. All entry points need signage and repeater signs should be used if required however there could be an argument if you had not ignored the entry sign you would not have required signs in the pedestrian area.
Glacier2
*Facepalm*
dot bert
Hi, here is the PCN, from reading them replies then, am i best off just paying the discounted rate? lol
Thanks biggrin.gif






meaty
Dot i told you in your email to me that the wording on the sign is not valid. Pay it if you want its up to you
Glacier2
PCN is invalid as it does not explain that you can appeal to an independent adjudicator. Sign is a joke.

I would certainly not pay up on that piece of tosh.
dot bert
good good biggrin.gif pleease can someone explain to me what makes the PCN and the sign invalid so i can put it in writing? im not very good at this as ive never had a ticket before! i didnt even no about this site till the other day, but im glad i found it and im gonna stay active and spread the word this sort or site needs to be known to everyone im stop the wardens robbing people!

and please can someone post me a valid PCN so i have something to compare it too biggrin.gif thanks
meaty
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 12:19) *
PCN is invalid as it does not explain that you can appeal to an independent adjudicator.
Where's the requirement for that? http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073483_en_6#sch1
dot bert
So my only approach then can but the sign is not valid? what is it about this particular sign that makes it no good then?
thanks
southpaw82
QUOTE (meaty @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 13:23) *
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 12:19) *
PCN is invalid as it does not explain that you can appeal to an independent adjudicator.
Where's the requirement for that? http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073483_en_6#sch1


The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, Regulation 3(2):

A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served
(i) those representations will be considered;
(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Do you actually charge for advice? I do hope not!
meaty
Just saw that sorry, I missed the reference to adjudicator in 3(2). No I don't charge
dot bert
ok so is the PCN is invalid then? lol, if it is any idea what i should put on paper and send it in as? id appreciate it sooner that later as im coming onto my 5th day now and nearing the 50% discount mark!
thanks
southpaw82
Point out to them that the PCN is invalid for the reasons we've given you.
Neil B
The PCN is absolute tosh!

most of the deadline periods are wrong, 'within 14 days, within 28 days, etc'

Don't laugh - but that is a new improved version!!!!!! You should have seen what they were issuing a month ago! 

dot bert
so basically if i just send a letter saying sumthin like

dear sir or madam,

on 19.12.2008 i was issued wiv pcn. it does not explain to me that i can appeal to an independant adjudicator, therefor it is invalid. i will not bein paying your pcn, go find a pig to ****

yours faithfully

dot bert


hehehe maybe a slight edit at the end, wat u fink? but obviously i will expand on this and include the details of my car and pcn number etc.

anything else i should mention in regards to the sign? is there a regulation aswell that they have broken by not mentioning i can appeal to an independant adjudicator? if there is does it have a name or a code i can quote in my letter?
thanks again biggrin.gif
Neil B
There's more.

Re Southpaw's link to the statute. They fail to comply with Reg 3 (2) (b) both (i) and arguably (ii).

there was something else too but will add in a mo (forgotten it).

-





Ah, found it again.

'Will receive a Notice to owner' - should be 'may' receive.

I'm thinking it's possibly only the front they've corrected. I sure i recall the front was rubbish as well before!

-

dot bert
where about do you all find this info? its good stuff biggrin.gif can someone paste the regualtions for me to see, i cant follow that site lol sad.gif and can someone whos won appeals before please rough me a letter up or send me a copy of theres so i dont make an idiot out of myself? i asked my mum for help and shes just like, oh pay it you shouldnt have parked there! lol
bama
better for you that you draft up a latter yourself based on the information given. Then post it here for a critique.
Neil B
QUOTE (dot bert @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 18:00) *
where about do you all find this info? its good stuff biggrin.gif can someone paste the regualtions for me to see, i cant follow that site lol


Site? Wot site. Meaty linked you to a tiny part of the legislation in post 9. You only have to read part 1 of the schedule - the bit that appears on screen when you link. 


they are the requirements for the contents of a PCN. All of the points raised show they haven't complied to many of them.

So you would just say it fails to comply with CEoPC Gen Regs 2007 (see top of PCN for full title) the Schedule, Part 1, items blah, blah and blah and probably blah!



southpaw82
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 16:47) *
QUOTE (meaty @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 13:23) *
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 12:19) *
PCN is invalid as it does not explain that you can appeal to an independent adjudicator.
Where's the requirement for that? http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20073483_en_6#sch1


The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, Regulation 3(2):

A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served
(i) those representations will be considered;
(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Do you actually charge for advice? I do hope not!



QUOTE (dot bert @ Mon, 22 Dec 2008 - 18:00) *
can someone paste the regualtions for me to see, i cant follow that site lol


Already done for you.
meaty
With regards to the sign you need to say that it does not comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 as it is not a permitted variant of diagram 618.3 or 618.3A.

The regs are here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

and the sign references are here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311337.gif
and here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311338.gif
dot bert
Ok great, ill draft a little letter up shortly and post it up and then maybe someone can check it over for me biggrin.gif is it likely this will get dropped at 1st appeal or will i have to follow it through to an independant adjudicator? is there any chance i wont win this and end up paying the full amount?
dot bert
ok heres first draft, ive never done anything like this before so dont take the micky lol

Dear Sir or Madam,
On the 19.12.2008, I received a parking ticket, but on this ticket there seems to be a number of issues, so I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons. The PCN I was issued fails to comply with ‘The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, Regulation 3(2).’ This regulates that a PCN must include the following:

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served —
(i) those representations will be considered;
(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
However, on this PCN, it does not explain that I can appeal to an independent adjudicator.

It is also incorrectly written with regards to the deadlines. On the PCN it states I have to pay within 28 days of the date the PCN is issued, and within 14 days for the charge to be reduced by 50%. It should state that I have until the end of the period of 28 days and no later than the last day of the period of 14 days to pay the reduced amount.

Another error on the PCN would be where it states if payment is not issued within 28 days, the registered keeper will receive a notice to owner. It should be ‘may’ receive.

My final issue with this PCN is related to the signage. The sign in use does not comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 as it is not a permitted variant of diagram 618.3 or 618.3A. Please find attached a photo of the sign in use.

Due to the reasons mentioned above, I will not be paying this PCN as it is not valid, nor is the sign that enforces this; therefore this PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully
dot bert
what u reckon will that do the trick or is it a load of rubbish? thanks
Glacier2
Nothing wrong with your letter, but they will reject as they will not want to admit that their paperwork is rubbish. Just warning you in advance.

dot bert
oh rite sad.gif anything i need to add or change? do we think i will win this appeal or am i better off paying the reduced rate? and shall i send it recorded so i know that they receive it? thanks
Glacier2
You have to play the long game. Most people can't be arsed to stand and fight. Councils will reject away knowing that most will fold up and pay at the informal appeal stage.
dot bert
ok then ill take it to the end, are all the points in the letter correct then? do you think this would win then or will i end up paying? thanks every1 for the help so far smile.gif
Glacier2
I would say you have a 95% chance of not paying it. Letter sounds good. smile.gif
dot bert
ok then, ill get it in the post and ill let you know what they say biggrin.gif
dot bert
Hi guys, just a quickie, with all christmas and that going on, i dont know if my appeal will get there before the 14 day deadline, however on the coventry council website they offer an email address. are emails any good for appeals or always best to send a letter?
thanks
Merry Christmas biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

also i have eddited the paragraph in my letter with regards to the sign

My final issue with this PCN is related to the signage. The sign in use does not comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 as it is not a permitted variant of diagram 618.3 or 618.3A. The sign should not have the word ‘and’ before taxi, but before disabled, as this is the last variant in use. Also the signs states ‘for access’. This should say 'Except for access'. Please find attached a photo of the sign in use.

is that ok what ive put?

thanks again
dot bert
Finally sent my letter off today, had a few alterations to the one i posted up, will let you know what they say when they reply. heres a copy of the letter i sent


Coventry City Council
Parking Services Unit
P.O. Box 3943
Coventry
CV1 9AF

PCN Notice Number –
Vehicle Registration –

Dear Sir or Madam,

On the ------, I received a parking ticket, but on this ticket there seems to be a number of issues, so I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons. The PCN I was issued fails to comply with ‘The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, Regulation 3(2).’ This regulates that a PCN must include the following:

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and
(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served —
(i) those representations will be considered;
(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.
However, on this PCN, it does not explain that I can appeal to an independent adjudicator.

It is also incorrectly written with regards to the deadlines. On the PCN it states I have to pay within 28 days of the date the PCN is issued, and within 14 days for the charge to be reduced by 50%. It should state that I have until the end of the period of 28 days and no later than the last day of the period of 14 days to pay the reduced amount.

Another error on the PCN would be where it states if payment is not issued within 28 days, the registered keeper will receive a notice to owner. It should be ‘may’ receive.

My final issue with this PCN is related to the signage. The sign in use does not comply with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 as it is not a permitted variant of diagram 618.3 or 618.3A. The sign should not have the word ‘and’ before taxi, but before disabled, as this is the last variant in use. Also the signs states ‘for access’. This should say 'Except for access'. The sign has also been edited using black tape. There is no where in the TSRGD regulations which permits this. Please find attached a photo of the sign in use.

Due to the reasons mentioned above, I will not be paying this PCN as it is not valid, nor is the sign that enforces this; therefore this PCN must be cancelled. However should you decide otherwise, please include in your response photographic evidence of the car, as well as a copy of the relevant traffic order.

Yours faithfully







also should i add that there are no signs or markings on the street i was parked on? is there a distance that signs are valid for before there should be another? thanks
dot bert
hi, i have not yet recieved a reply to this, is there a time limit for them to respond? also should i have mentioned the fact that there were no markings or signs on the street i had parked on? thanks
dave-o
Did you send it registered post?

And don't worry about adding extra stuff right now. You can do that at the next appeal stage.
dot bert
no i rang them and they said i could email them so i just attatched it and sent it, they had replied to my email saying they have recieved it and it will be dealt with in date order.
dave-o
Try phoning them up and asking what stage you are at. If they think you are outside the date they may ignore it and the next thing you'll know is you get an NTO. Which isn't a bad thing really. It means the possibility of more ammo and the certainty that they actually consider your appeal.
dot bert
still no reply to this, however i know they recieved my appeal, whts the usual lenght it takes and is there a cut off before it becomes invalid?
thanks
southpaw82
If it's an informal appeal then they don't have to reply at all.
Neil B
Looking at the timescale Dot.

If they choose not to reply - the Notice to Owner is due anytime from now (but your appeal may have delayed it).

If you get one - don't go panicking! just scan and post up the next thing received.

(Their NtOs have got to be even funnier! biggrin.gif )

You have a strong case. Chill.

-

Anorak
If you do receive an NtO you can add further points. As there are no yellow lines within the zone I believe they need special DfT authorisation to do this if certain criteria has not been met. To not include yellow lines this condition below needs to be met.

(ii) The road must not comprise a carriageway
and footway which are separately defined.

Judging from your photos this condition clearly is not met, so ask the council if they have the special authorisation from the DfT to not mark yellow lines.

Your photos also do not show that another conditon where yellow lines are omitted has been followed. Repeater signs to diagram 637.2 should be used within the zone at regular intervals. Here is the link to the sign http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311346.gif
dot bert
just wandering, is there a set time they must action this before the ticket expires?
southpaw82
Yes, six months after service of the PCN.
dot bert
Hi all,
I posted a topic regarding this in December. However it now seems to be non exsistant. The problem i had was i was given a PCN for parking it restricted zone during prescribed hours. However, on the street i parked on, there are no road markings or signs anywhere. the only sign stating its a pedestrian zone was 2 streets away.

However, I appealed against this, and was told the case would be put on hold. Today i received an NTO asking for the sum on £70. I did not receive any reply to my appeal and was not given a further 14 days to pay the discounted rate. Where do i stand with this now, as i now have a fine for £70 not £35!

I have sent this letter back to them. Anything else I can do in the meantime? If any more info is required please let me know.

Thanks


To Parking Enforcement Team,


On the 19.12.2008 I received a parking ticket, PCN No. .........., I appealed against this within the 14 day timescale for the discounted rate. However, today i received a NTO, stating I owe £70. When I appealed, it said that should my appeal not be accepted, I would be contacted stating the reasons why, and would be given a further 14 days to pay the discounted rate. However, no where on the NTO it does not mention this!

Can it please be explained to me why I have not been given the opportunity to pay the discounted rate and why my PCN was not cancelled, as I cannot see how you can enforce a PCN issued for a car parked on a street which has no road markings or signage what so ever!

Until I have received a reply stating why my appeal was not accepted, and then given a further 14 days to pay the discounted rate, I will not be paying this NTO and will happily use this as a further reason as to why my PCN whould be cancelled, due to the fact that you have again broken the regulations set out to you.

I look forward to your reply.





Neil B
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=0&start=0

what, that one?

Glacier2
There is no legal obligation to:

A. Respond to an informal appeal or
B. Reoffer the discounted amount.
dot bert
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 9 May 2009 - 21:04) *



Haha, thats it, when i looked in my account it only showed my other post! Thats the one tho, sall i leave this thread open or copy it into the old and delete? whats easiest?
Neil B
PM the Mods and ask them to sort it.

definitely do not send that draft letter before properly advised.

-



QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Sat, 9 May 2009 - 21:07) *
There is no legal obligation to:

A. Respond to an informal appeal or
B. Reoffer the discounted amount.


PCN promises B. should be able to hold them to it as she has an acknowledgement.


we need to see that acknowledgement and the NtO

Teufel
agreed they should be held to the promise of accpting the discount

OP needs to decide wetehr to pursue this or to appela the whole thing
dot bert
ok ill put that letter in the bin now, what should me approach be to this then? and i would prefer to appeal against the whole pcn if you think i can get it cancelled, but if not ill go for the discount route.
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