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Ahmed
I have just been called by my manager that apparently I was caught on A367 in Bearflat speeding in my works van. He hadn't received the NIP to the company yet, as the van is lease. All he knew was that the leasing company had told the SCP who the van was registered to. So I have no idea as to what speed it says I was doing. I know the date and time of the offecne as the leasing company have given that to us.

All the vans are equiped with trackers, Tomtom work, which log the speed and position of the van at any time.

I ran the report on my tracker for the specific time interval, I gave it 5 minutes before and after the alleged time, and at no time my speed is more than the speed limit.

The alleged offecne happened on bearflat in Bath. Now the only place I can think of, is the wellsway hill, just past bearflat where it become a dual carriageway but with speed limit 30mph. However I was still only doing 30mph most of the time, apart from one place where I hit 31mph!

Please see attached the report from my tracker. Now on I know I was not speeding, and the scum bag has obviosuly made a mistake in reading my speed, but is this acceptable as evidence in court?

How can I make it accpetable if the answer is no. Am I supposed to somehow get the report validated by a police office or something?

Now I know I wasn't speeding. I have 8pts on my licence from last yr and believe me learnt my lesson. Need my licence for work and know how easy it is to loose it. So never ever exceed any speed limit of 30mph, 40mph or 50mph. The only place where I go over the limit, are on national speed limits on dual carriages and motorways. I was TOLD by a TRAFFIC OFFICER that on a motorway/dual carriageway, depending on the weather and traffic, they don't normally bother stoppoing people for speeds of up to 85mph. up to 90, they stop you and have a chat. above 90-95, they give you FPT, and aboe that it is court!

I am gonna wait until I recieve the full NIP and then ask for a photo for ID purposes, don't know who the driver was, and then see what happens.

If the retard of the SCP hasn't calibrated the device properly, I know I have proof that I didn't break the limit, but what about poor others that don't hve proof and know that they hadn't broken the speed limit?!

I am really tempted to go all the way to court for this, hopefully get proven not guilty, and then ask for all tickets on that day with that specific twat to be cancelled and people be compensated! It is just not fecking on!

The time of the offecne is 13:30, and then about 13:35 where you see my speed going up to 40mph, is where the odd down park and ride is. This has now become national speed limit going towards Peacedown.
The tomtom also has a map, which highlights the exact position on the road at the specific time. So I can prove that until I hit the national speed limit, my speed was always 30mph or below!


Anyway, here is the tomtom log. Is this accpetable?

Cheers
A

arthurc
IMO
There was a case reported where an inventor used a system he had developed to disprove a speeding offence in Gateshead.... but the recording he had made on his 'car black box' was never submitted in evidence because the case was dropped because the officer who reported him had left the force (said the CPS).


If you try and submit the tracker/tomtom evidence the CPS won't allow it to happen. After all, any evidence they submit has to be from Home Office Type Approved equipment so they are unlikely to allow yours to be accepted without challenging it. To be able to use it you are going to need expert testimony on the equipment and additionally that the data han't been tampered with (yes, it is possible that the data can be manipulated and a tomtom is an aid to navigation, and does not carry a ful system audit trail).

Anyway - I doubt that you would need it. If you were doing the speed that you were - the photographs will show the distance travelled and the you can calculate the speed yourself to demonstrate that the offence wasn't committed.

You shouldn't get too complacent and reliant upon the TomTom information though... GPS positioning can be inaccurate. Especially if the system was only tracking 4 satellites and dropped one of them so it was down to 3 satellites providing the information. Normally you would expect 8 or 9 satelliters to be providing readings after the system has 'warmed up' and dropping one satellites in these circumstances wouldn't have a measurable effect.

I don't mean to sound negative about this .... just trying to be realistic about what it means. Getting hold of the pictures and measuring the distances is probably the only thing that will provide you with a defence to the charge. Your tomtom isn't going to do that.


Pete D
Whilst the tracker may know the speed limit in any area does it allow for the fact you are driving a Van and the limit lay well be different depending on the size of the van. Tracker information can not presently be used to convict as it is not an 'approved' device but could possible be used to defence an allegation. Pete D
Teufel
as defendant you have very wide latitude to intriduce any eveidence you want

certainly expert evidence and tachos hae been successfully used

note there is no requirenent to disclose your defence
Cargy
I'm no expert (so wait until the more learned members advise you properly) but I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to use it in evidence to support a NG plea. Shop receipts and mobile phone bills don't come from HO approved devices either, but they are still supporting evidence.

Seems to me it's also a good lever to obtain full disclosure of any video (and would counter any claims of a fishing trip).
Gaza
QUOTE
The only place where I go over the limit, are on national speed limits on dual carriages and motorways.


You do know the limit for a van on a dual carriageway is 60mph and 50mph on a single carriageway. Regardless of what you were told by a traffic bobby the scammers do not apply the type of latitude you mention and will scam you at above the ACPO thresholds. There are quite a few cases on here of people being scammed at 79mph on a motorway.

You will have to wait until you get your own NIP to find out what they are trying to do you for.
davepoth
If it's the site I'm thinking of the scamvan will have been parked in the bus stop in the middle of this map:

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=5...mp;t=h&z=19

Pointing south. The road has quite a steep gradient, and is pretty wide and straight for the most part, so it's an effort to keep to the limit unless traffic is very heavy. If the OP has any happy snaps of the "offence" they might shed a bit of light on whether the speed gun was used wrongly.
arthurc
I don't disagree with any of the other comments... you can try and get your tomtom information accepted to support your NG plea but you will need to convince them that the data hasn't been tampered with.

Your defence to the charge is that you were not exceeding the speed limit ... IMO the best way to construct that defence is by challenging the evidence they provide. If you can do that then you have a chance but if all you can do is counter with your tomtom information you aren't going to have much chance.

There are people on this forum who can examine the photographic evidence and let you know what chance you have. You're going to have to wait for the NIP to find out.
Pete D
Yuo may be able to use the tracker data but the problem I see is that the tracker only logs the speed once a minute and an LTI ping is 0.3 of a second. If the quality of the ping is good then the mags may ignore you logged date defence. Well worth a try though. Wash the photo's of any ID, when you get them and post them in your thread. Rememeber only request photo's to help identify the driver, No not elaborate or use the words evidence or proof. Requesting photo's does not stop the clock so you still have to return the NIP within the 28 days from when you get it that is. Pete D
Cargy
QUOTE (Pete D @ Tue, 11 Nov 2008 - 12:31) *
the problem I see is that the tracker only logs the speed once a minute and an LTI ping is 0.3 of a second.


True, but the range of speeds indicated suggests that he is consistantly below 30mph (apart from the first record in the list which may be in a higher limit).

It's difficult to imagine the reality of a driver working out precisely when the Tracker logs the data, and then carefully kangarooing his speed every 60 seconds, all day, every day, to match the log times. Far more likely the driver's speed remained sub-limit throughout.

As said, only thing we can do is wait for the NIP.

arthurc
We have two pieces of information that the OP is presenting us with here .

1. The Tracker log .... this log is maintained externally to the company that he works for so that his company can track where he is and at what time.
The OP has told us that he checked the Tracker log and it shows his position and speed 5 minutes before and 5 minutes afterwards ... but not at 13.30 which is the time of the alleged offence. So Tracker (which could be presented in his defence because the data is maintained by an external organisation) is not going to help him.

2. His TomTom device which he has copied onto his post.
The TomTom data does show a speed at 13.30 - of 27mph. What it also shows is that until 13.29 he had 6 satellites being used to continuously (not every miute) monitor his position and speed. At 13.29 this number fell to 5 satellites (that's what the 6x and 5x data tells us). So the reduction in the number of tracking satellites at precisely 13.30 means that the infornmation is less reliable. Additionally, with only the TomTom data being relevant, the OP is going to have to demonstrate that the data has not been doctored in any way. As I have already said, TomTom doesn't have a security audit trail in the way that some systems do but then it was not designed to be used as evidence in criminal proceedings, merely as a navigation aid.

So, to prepare a defence he has to cast doubt on the accuracy of the evidence that the CPS can provide and he can't know how good that evidence is until he sees it. Which means getting the photos.



Gaza
QUOTE
The OP has told us that he checked the Tracker log and it shows his position and speed 5 minutes before and 5 minutes afterwards ... but not at 13.30 which is the time of the alleged offence. So Tracker (which could be presented in his defence because the data is maintained by an external organisation) is not going to help him.


QUOTE
I ran the report on my tracker for the specific time interval, I gave it 5 minutes before and after the alleged time, and at no time my speed is more than the speed limit.


I took this to mean that the OP ran the report 5 minutes either side and the output was in 1 minute intervals.
arthurc

Maybe the OP can clarify. You may be right and perhaps he does have a Tracker report that will help.

The report he's pasted in his posting is for TomTom..... does he have another report from Tracker ... his companies fleet management system?
The Rookie
Which is clearly what is shown in the screenshot, data every minute.

Even then the precise time of the 'ping' versus the precise time of the tracker could be called into question.

Simon
Ahmed
Thanks for all the replies guys. Here is some more info:

1) The log that I havce included here is from TOMTOM Webfleet. This is separate to TOMTOM sat nav. The van has 2 units in there: One is the TOMTOM unit and the other, a black box which we have no use of and don't know where it is, connected to the ignition and has a separate GSM/GPRS connection. The report I have inlcuded is for the TOMTOM Webfleet. The tracking system and not the sat nav system.

2) I can run the report on the system, I can specify time to the nearest minute. How it shows the data is not up to me. can't get it to show any more frequent than once per minute.

3) I ran the report, so incase the timing of the Scammer is wrong, I can see where I was at what given time. So I ran the report for a 5minute interval on either side of the 13:30 as I was told. I am yet to receive the NIP and see exactly what time and what speed it was.

4) Even i the satellite had dropped, I can't see how it would effect my speed reading by that much. As said above, it is hard trying to cheat the tracker into thinking what speed you are doing by kangarooing the car every 60minutes. Just not possible.

5) How can the photos help? Assuming they sent any from the scammer, which I expect it is a LTi20-20, then surely I can't measure the disctane travelled in the small photo they send me?!

6) The rackwer knows thespeed limit, but it is for cars and not vans. However the speed you see in the report, is my actual speed. The way I uderstand it works out the speed, is that it samples over any given minute and then displays the max speed at that given minute. I maybe wrong.

7) I am really annoyed and pissed off tbh if I can't use the log from the tracker to prove my innocence! I know I wasn't speeding, so why should I be penalised for the fecker who hasn't done his/her job properly?!

I got done for doing 98mph on a dua lcarriage way last year! I contested it, I had a diff van at the time. ( small van, normal 70mph limit). The CPS didn't send me any evidence of the police pilot calibration, police office made lots of cock ups, he gave the wrong registartion numbe for his police car and ... , he admited he didn't calibrate the pilot before and after his shift!

I yet still got done because I couldn't prove I wasn't speeding! To me, this is wrong and fecking unfair! I got 5pts and £400 fine!

I learnt my lesson, that with this police attitude and CPS, its best not to get caught in the first place, as whether guilty or not, you are always found guilty! I wanted to take the above case to Crown court, but the solicitors wanted £3k for it and I couldn't afford it!

But this time, I have an evidence, which by the looks of things they are allowed to stand up and diregard that, and yet not provide any evdence of their own!

shocking!
Pete D
You will have to email TomTom from their site and ask for details of the logging information. My son who has driven with TomTom Fleet believes that the speed logged is the actual at that moment and not a max or average. The reason for the photo's is to ensure the Ping is valid, no errors, within range and no obstructions. Pete D
Laura Bidding
Hi Ahmed



What a fascinating thread;



Having been to court several times where sat nav has been presented as a defence exhibit, the two key issues here are, the time displayed by the Lastec Local video system is not based upon anything other than a manual setting by a camera operator, it not being synched remotely to an atomic clock or anything so hi-tech. Consequently, the sat-nav times will not marry up and can be minutes apart unless you are very lucky. Secondly, from memory, I remember one motorist who insisted on defending himself, produced (with a flourish) one such similar log, but was told that unless it contained a second by second account of his vehicle’s movement along the road in question, it was quite worthless.



The point regarding the SCP ‘retards’. Whichever type, mobile or static, the ‘retards’ have nothing whatsoever to do with camera calibration other than packaging them up just before the calibration date is due to expire and sending them off. Whilst I have read of some cameras being found to be operational outside their calibration dates, SCP’s are bombarded daily with requests for proof of calibration so with just a few mobile cameras, those dates will be well known and it would be extremely unusual for a mobile camera to be used outside of calibration. Remember, SCP’s do not calibrate any equipment themselves.



The other point is assuming that the ‘scumbag’ in question carried out the fixed distance check upon leaving the station, did not ignore any error messages during camera startup. confirmed the laser and red dot in the sight were aligned via tone alignment and zero mph’ed on a fixed object that were both ‘visually recorded’ at the start of that particular session, the only possible hiccup would be actual camera mis-operation during the acquisition of data pertaining to your alleged offence. You’d have to view the actual section of the tape/DVD to see if poor operation of the camera could be used as a defence. Failing that, sat nav information in the format you provide is completely worthless, it is neither type approved, cannot be validated, is full of yawning great chronological holes and is circumstantial at best.



When you say ‘…yet not provide any evidence of their own’, this isn’t strictly true for surely there will be a recorded moving record of events/hard copy printout, which is completely different to a police officer with just an LTI?



Photos will not help as you say to work out your speed, I believe the poster who mentioned working out speed from pictures assumed it was a static camera. I don’t know what ‘kangarooing the car every 60 minutes’ refers to, but your only real avenue is to establish that ‘…the fecker hasn't done his/her job properly?!’, which will be extremely difficult if all the relevant check boxes can be seen to be ticked.



I would add that whilst I do not disbelieve what you say, I use an LTI 20.20 system professionally and although I do not know the road in question, from the Google map further up the thread it appears long and straight. A camera operator has no input into calibration as already stated, so unless there was some considerable chicanery from overtaking or ducking and diving cross-traffic, only a photo can begin to shed light on what might have transpired. If the picture turns up and there are crosshairs firmly embedded in the back of your van with the speed displayed, all recorded at a reasonable distance, no other vehicles in the frame, then you’ll have to start playing whatever games you are advised to by those here.



Ahmed
Hi Laura

I can only guess it is going to be a Lti device and not a static. I know that stretch of road in Bath and there is no fixed camera. But again, I always see the vans, I can't recally seeing anyone tbh! Anywhere!

Now, assuming this is a Lti deivde, as far as I understand, these are requirements by the Home office, that:

1) There has to be a valid cal cert for the device. As you pointed it is highly unlikely they won't have one.

2) The operator has to perform zeroing and laser alignment at EVERY site he gets to. Both horizontally and vertically. This was also seen in Frank Garrat's cross examination in a previous check. If this is not done, there is no way of knowing if the laser was actually pointing to a flat surface of the van or not.

3) And again a check when has finished.

Now unless I know what speed I am being done for, I can't comment on what he has or has not done. But I know for fact that I was not speeding and the tracker confirms this.

Once I get the NIP and know which CPS is delaing with this, which I wouldn't know until I ask for a court hearing, then I can approach the CPS directly and ask them what I need to do to get the tracker evidence accepted. Ofcourse all be done in writing, so I can provide the magistates with the proof that I did ask them and they didn't want to help!

I do really hope the picture is from behind the van. Because then I can tell them I don't know who the driver was. I tell them that I have asked eveyone and no one knows who was driving. Furthermore, send the SCP, the tomtom log and show them that there was no speeding involved and becasue of that no one is prepared to accept responsibility.

If this case goes to court, I put money down on it, that the CPS WILL NOT be providing ANY video evidence. The only thing would be a S9 statement from the scammer saying he did this and that! which would be bollox, but unfortunately accepted infront of the maggies!

But I hope I am proved wrong!

QUOTE (Laura Bidding @ Tue, 11 Nov 2008 - 18:33) *
, produced (with a flourish) one such similar log, but was told that unless it contained a second by second account of his vehicle’s movement along the road in question, it was quite worthless.


Well them TOmtom log, does show the exact route taken by the van in the specific day/date. I will provide a sample shortly.
Ahmed
There it is: as you see it shows the exact route i tok on that day and where exactly I was at a given time.



Pete D
Telling them that it was not you driving when the van was issued to you that day and your work log will show then then you are heading for showering with a bunch of other naked in-mates at 6am in the morning. Forget that idea, very dangerous. Pete D
Ahmed
No no:

There was 3 of us in the van. We don't know who was driving at any one time. It is a company van and we all have the use of it. I could have felt tired, someone else could have driven it and ...
Pete D
The A367 does not appear to have any fixed Gatso camera so it looks as though it was a mobile unit.

I should also warn you that the BiB surfs this site and what you may say may be noted.
Pete D
Ahmed
I hear you Pete. I am a bit clever than what you might think mate wink.gif

Pete D
You made no mention of that in the thread till now and the manager contacted you, not your work mates, and you referred to 'I' and no mention of a potential other driver. Pete D
MICKY1
QUOTE
Once I get the NIP and know which CPS is delaing with this, which I wouldn't know until I ask for a court hearing, then I can approach the CPS directly and ask them what I need to do to get the tracker evidence accepted. Ofcourse all be done in writing, so I can provide the magistates with the proof that I did ask them and they didn't want to help
biggrin.gif So you want to ask the CPS, the prosecution service to prove your case for you. Sorry about the smilley face, unfortuanatly i couldnt find one with a big enough smile.I promise next time i will try harder.

QUOTE
I do really hope the picture is from behind the van. Because then I can tell them I don't know who the driver was. I tell them that I have asked eveyone and no one knows who was driving. Furthermore, send the SCP, the tomtom log and show them that there was no speeding involved and becasue of that no one is prepared to accept responsibility.
Good luck , i hope your are on good terms with your boss when he is gives evidence against you in court.

QUOTE
But I know for fact that I was not speeding and the tracker confirms this.


I honestly do wish you luck with your defense but your tom tom log proves nothing. My journey home takes 20 minutes and for almost the whole journey i can say i dont speed but occasionally i may put my foot down a bit to hard and may exceed the speed limit by a few mile an hour for a few seconds here or their. In my opinion that shouldnt be enough for someone to be charged with speeding, however the law dosent see it that way. And a tom tom log which only logs speeds minute by minute may not see it either.
Ahmed
Manager conacted me becaue the van is registered to the company and not me.so he got the letter from the leasing company. I am suposed to be the main driver of the van, but at the same time others have access to it as well.

I let my mate have the van on my day off work so he could move house! Manager doesn't know who has my van at any time?! and my friend has fully comp insurance that allows him to drive anything he wants.

Pete D
The manager contacted you because you are the main driver of the van. Your mate using the van to move house without permission of the company was not very 'clever' and if he does not work for the same company then the vehicle was technically un-insured and nothing to do with your alleged offence anyway. The company is supposed to know who is the main driver of the vans and there should be a log book in the van to record this. Your Manager probably read this just after you wrote it. Pete D
Laura Bidding
Ahmed Will your boss be happy to say he does not know who was driving? This would lead to the weightier charge of failure to supply - if the company is one that keep strict records of who driving what and when, this would count against them not you as you will deny you were driving thus exonerating you and implicating them for shoddy record keeping.
Ahmed
No Laura. Thats not a choice. Because although technically the van is theirs, I am the registered keeper in the companies eyes. What I do with it is up to me. Last time, I asked them to delay the NIP for a bit, but they didn't and sent it back the day after they received it. Cos they said in their eyes, it was xxxx the course of justice!

As to my friend driving the van, why would he not be allowed to? He is 35yrs old, he has a fully comprehensive insurance which allows him to drive any vehile 3rd party provided me as the keeper is aware of it. Also there is a valid insurance for the van at the time from my company!

Anyway, this is not the route I shall be taking anyhow, as this means then I admit I was speeding. I was not speeding, have all the evidence( if admisible or not) to prove it.

I will contact Tomtom once I get the NIP through and see what they say I was doing!
Surely a proper stamped log by the manufacturer of the tracker for the van in question at the given time, including the graphical movement of the van thorughout the time period, is good enough?
Pete D
Firstly why delay contacting TomTom ?? Secondly if your mate did not work for your campany then he did not have permission from the RK of the vehicle to use it. Your name is not on the Log Book and you do not hold the insurance on it. Just drop the mate thing and the house move as it is not relavant. I note you appear to have now dropped the other two guys that you suggested were in the van and may have been driving. There are 65 CCTV camera in the Bath and surrounding areas and you can be sure that the route you took goes past more than one, if the BiB smell a rat they will review these to ID how many people were in the front of your van. Pete D

The good news is that the journey progress as logged looks quite linear so the opportunity to have been speeding does seem slim. The NIP and the exact location may reveal more information as will the photo's Pete D
Ahmed
Well I never said Iwas gonna use that excuse tbh. If I was speeding then that would be a different matter.

I was only driving through Bath on that day anyway. I don't live locally! live miles away.

The thing is, I know it sounds as if I am trying to get out of it. But I WASN'T speeding. I know this for the fact. Had they said they had cought me on a dual carriage or similar, then possibly, but in the middle of town, on the A367 which is going UPHILL by the way, is just not possible. Specially in the middle of afternoon in Bath!

Problem is I am off work for 2 weeks from tomrrow. So I am not gonna know until I come back. But again first the company has to send the NIP back to the SCP with my name on it, and then they send me my own NIP. So still a while to wait!
Pete D
The registered keeper is the name person on the V5. The keeper may be a different person , your company, or you. the NIP should come to your home address so you will know how to progress this issue. Pete D
Pete D
Did you get a reponse from TomTomFleet. Pete D
Ahmed
I haven't contacted them yet. I am awaiting for the NIP to arrive so I know what they are alleging I was doing. But my company hasn't recevied the NIP in their name yet. so at least 2 weeks to go before I get it in my name. Once I know what they are alleging, then I am gonna get in touch with them and ask for photo ID, and also speak to tomtom fleet and see what they say.

In the meantime, go and get advice from a solicitor with the printout of the tomtom,

Pete D
Before running around and probably spending money in a lawyers office ( there is no legal aid for these type of motoring offences ) why not contact TomTom who must have been here before. Then when you do take advice or receive your NIP you will know what to do. Pete D
Ahmed
I have emailed Tomtom now. We will see what happens/what they say.

And i have just been told that my company receivd the NIP today and sending it off soon. They speed they are doing me for is 34mph in 30! Is this normal? I have driven behind police cars who are doing 35mph! How can this be fair!

Laura Bidding
Ahmed



You say this was in Bath? From what I can determine, that area is covered by Avon & Somerset and their partnership is notoriously generous when it comes to the ACPO Guidelines, their base threshold stemming from the Spinal Tap school of speed enforcement – it’s ‘one more!’.

To the best of my knowledge, their manual threshold allows 10%+3, not the usual 10%+2, meaning the system is set at 35mph to catch at 36mph minimum. They obviously wouldn’t then currently ‘do’ anyone for 34mph, their CPU viewing system whizzing straight past your vehicle if it was 34mph, for even if you were targeted and the trigger pulled, the system wouldn’t recognize it as an offence.

We had a meeting back in June of this year and different working practices were discussed, there being genuine surprise that any partnership was being even remotely charitable. If revenue was that important, surely they’d hit base metal and go for every possible penny?

If an NIP is really on the way, I’m confident it’s 36mph minimum. You have either been misinformed somewhere along the line, one of your colleagues is having a joke at your expense, or the criteria have recently changed.





Pete D
Speeding is an absolute offence. 30.1 is speeding and the ACPO are just guidlines and we have seen 33 being prosecuted so 34 is not a surprise really. Can your company delay the return of the NIP until day 25/26 so it is still compliant but buys you time. Pete D
Ahmed
Laura >> This is what they said to me that said on the NIP.

Pete >> As for the delay, no they can't. She said she was gonna stick it in the post tonight as otherwise she bilieves it is 'Perverting the course of Justice' by replying late!!

I am gonna have to wait and see when I receive my NIP and take it from there.
Ahmed
bloody hell. That was quick!

The NIP arrived in my name in the post this morning. The speed recorded is 36mph. i don't know where my company got 34 from! obviously someone can't read!

I have written to the SCP for photo to help me identify the driver.

Also have emailed tomtom to see what they can do. But have had no response from them as to yet! They don't supply a phone number either!

now the strange thing, is that they, SCP, haven't offered me the speed awareness course, even though I have never done it before! They have however sent a COFP in there!

Perhaps someone on here has picked up my name and told them?!

what is the next step to take guys? Need to speak to a solicitor I guess first? most used to do a 30minute free interview, do they still do this?
cabbyman
They sent you a conditional offer of fixed penalty?

Have you confirmed the s172 request that you were driving yet?
Laura Bidding
Ahmed



Perhaps the SCP had a clue about your name and address because your company supplied it?

You will not be offered a speed awareness course with 8 points on your licence.

Ahmed
Hi

From past experience, They always send the COFP with the S172 request.

Laura >> The SAC I believe is always sent, if you are caught within the guidelines for the course, and you have not taken the course in the past 3 years.

The 8points have not accumulated in a short time, they were accumulated over the past 2yrs. So I can't see why they haven't offered me one!

unless as I said, some rat from here is actually from the SCP and have picked up on the subject!

All it does,make me wanna fight this case more!

Had they offered me the SAC, I might have considered just taking the course and cutting my losses. But now ...
The Rookie
Points of on the licence are irrelevant to being offerred a SAC if they follow ACPO guidelines (and I know of none that don't follow them) where LB got that from is beyond me!

Simon
Ahmed
So had a reply from tomtom regarding a report. This is the reply they sent me:

QUOTE
Dear Mrs. xxx,

TomTom WORK can't make an official statement that your vehicle never went over the allowed speed in a specific period of time. The reason is that our LINK unit doesn't monitor the speed every second. It does a position reading every 10 seconds. So, if your vehicle would have go over the speed limit between these 10 seconds, we could not detect it.

If you want to present a report to your solicitor, you will need to generate it yourself via WEBFLEET in a pdf format.


So theyare not gonna give a report to me directly. However the pdf format is all good and has all the details including the reg plate and speed.
And also it makes it a bit better to argue the fact that I didn't go over the speed limit as the speed is measured every 10seconds and then the average of the speeds is shown every minute I guess.

now I need to wait to get the photo from SCP and then contact a solicitor. I am more than happy to do all the leg work, and just get him to present the case infront the maggies as this is where I let myself down last time. they( CPS and the Clerk) walked all over me!

Now, am I correct in saying that as soon as I plead not guilty, under the CJA, it is their duty to supply ALL evidence to me ( Primary Disclosure). Then I can send them a vulentary defence statement and request a secondary evidence of things they don't send me first time( i.e. The video tape which is guaranteed not to be enclosed the first time).

Cheers
Chas820
QUOTE
Now, am I correct in saying that as soon as I plead guilty, under the CJA, it is their duty to supply ALL evidence to me


You have to plead NOT GUILTY
Ahmed
Sorry, thats what I meant. I don't know why it came out 'guilty?!'

Pete D
You say "average of the speeds is shown every minute I guess." "I guess" is the problem ask TomTom if it is an actual or an average. I would suggest, and as they say, the position is established every 10 seconds but you need to establish the facts on how that relates to the 1 minute log you have not guess. I think the photo's are more significant to see how clean the ping is. Pete D
Hotel Oscar 87
Having looked at this system about a year ago my recollection is that the reading is not an average but a single sample.

Some months ago I became involved in a somewhat similar case and the CPS made it very obvious from the outset that they would look to exclude any GPS evidence we might have attempted to introduce unless expert evidence could be brought to bear based on a reading each second. The manufacturer of the kit being used, which provided readings every 15 seconds, is based in Taiwan and they were unable to suggest an expert we could use. Ultimately the guy pleaded guilty after a cobbled up Newton hearing and he got away without a short-term ban - but still no GPS evidence. I wish you luck but I suspect you are clutching at straws.
Ahmed
The evidence from Tomtom arrived in the post today. It shows the exact location of the car at every minute and also shows the speed based on the GPS.

According to Tomtom rep, the speed that is shows is the average of the speeds taken every 10seconds, every minute.

now I know that CPS is gonna try and refuse the evidence, However I/solicitor will try to use the evidence to get the FULL tape for the day off CPS.

All I have to do now is to wait and see what picture they send me.

Pete D >> I recall from another one of your posts, that you said we have the right to go and view the video in scammers office to help identify the drive. Is this fact/possible to do, or is it another one of those things that they say we won't be able to do?

Cheers
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