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Straylight
Back in June I was flashed by a GATSO, & was NIP'ed. All the paperwork was, [unfortunately], within the legal requirements, & so I filled in my details & settled back to await my fine & points, or the offer of a speed awareness course, [this being my first ever offence -clean licence for 20+ yrs]. I heard absolutely nothing, & had even begun to allow myself to wonder if they had lost the paperwork, [such things not being unknown, though rarely admitted to, in Bureauland]. Woe to me then, when I awoke yesterday morning to find a fat envelope entitled "SUMMONS" on the breakfast table.

Even worse was to come when I opened it, & discovered that somehow, through powers known only to CPS lawyers, my small & rather feeble Peugeot 207 has magically transformed itself into a "large goods or passenger carrying vehicle".

Here are the details from the summons.



Offences

On xxxxxxx at xxxxxx drove a motor vehicle, namely large goods or passenger carrying vehicle Peugeot 207 Index xxxxxxxx at a speed exceeding 40 mph..........contrary to section 89 [1] of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 & Schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. This offence carries penalty points.

Statement of Facts

On xxxxxxx at xxxxxx the defendant drove large goods or passenger carrying vehicle Peugeot 207 Index xxxxxxxx.........at a speed exceeding the legal limit of 40 mph. The speed recorded by means of a GATSOMETER CAMERA was 55 miles per hour.



Surely this is a "not guilty" your honour? Can they change the details of the offence in court, or will it require a new summons, [in which case they will be out of time, since the hearing is beyond 6 months from the offence]. Seems very unfair that through their bureaucratic cock-up they somehoe think I was driving a big lorry or bus, & so I'm denied the chance of avoiding the points & doing speed awareness. Though if there's some room here which could result in an aquittal; all praise their incompetence!
andy_foster
Assuming that it was a 40 mph limit, the nature of the offence is the same and the court can (and will) amend the information/summons if the point is raised.

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.
quickboy
I would still contact them and get them to confirm where they got their information from that your 207 was either a large goods vehicle or a large passenger carrying vehicle. Although not likely it could be that someone has copied your reg number and placed it on an LGV or PCV. Very strange the way they have not been specific with exactly what vehicle type it was "large goods or passenger carrying vehicle Peugeot 207" Needs investigating further I believe.
Mr Grumpy
I must be missing something, 55 in a 40 would normally, with a clean licence, generate a COFP, as Andy Foster said, complete the NIP Wizard and post the outcome back here
davepoth
Of course the limit for an LGV on a single carriageway is 40 so there's a possibility of a cockup. We need the NIP Wizard to tell for sure.
Straylight
Here's the details from the Wizard....




NIP Details and Circumstances

What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2008
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 25 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A40 Western Ave West of Lynwood Road W/B W5
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Leasee
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was travelling along the A40 at 10 am, judging my speed by the flow of the traffic, a totally uneventful journey, until two weeks later I get NIP'ped.

Returned the NIP as all paperwork was in order & within time, heard nothing until this weekend, when I received a summons claiming I was driving a "large goods or PCV"


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 01:46:57 +0000





QUOTE (davepoth @ Sun, 2 Nov 2008 - 12:45) *
Of course the limit for an LGV on a single carriageway is 40 so there's a possibility of a cockup. We need the NIP Wizard to tell for sure.





But the whole point is that I wasn't driving a LGV....I was in a absolutely factory standard Peugeot 207!! Somehow its metamorphosed into a lorry through bureaucratic incompetence.....What really rankles is the idiots even sent me a picture of my car from the GATSO, & not one of them had the requisite intelligence to think "errr, thats not a lorry or bus".

Morons, the whole bloody lot of them.
andy_foster
The speed limit at that site is 40 mph, regardless of the type of vehicle.

You are correct in saying that you were not driving an LGV or a PCV. You were also not driving a 206 or a 307.
However, none of the details substantially alter the nature of the alleged offence. If you point out that you were not driving a Pug 207 LGV or PCV, but a Pug 207 hatchback with that registration number at that time and place, the court will agree that you were not speeding in an LGV or PCV and (nominally on the application of the prosecution) amend the details, and continue the case on that basis. There is no need to a fresh summons to be issued. You were not misled as to the nature of the allegation against you - it's your car, your registration and they even sent you a pretty picture of it. Everyone knows that a Pug 207 is not an HGV or a PCV. The error (and it clearly is an error - well spotted) is not sufficient to have the case thrown out.

However, from what you have told us (about the alleged offence in either May or June, and the NIP you received either 2 weeks later or 25 days later), you do not seem to have been issued a COFP. Whilst there is no statutory requirement to issue one, for alleged speeds of up to 65 in a 40 limit, you would almost certainly be sent one, absent unusual or aggravating circumstances.
If they didn't issue you a COFP because they erroneously had your little Pug marked down as an LGV or PCV, then you would have been disadvantaged by their mistake, and might be able to persuade the court to apply the same penalty.


Straylight
Fair point. How do I go about dealing with this? The summons has a section for pleading guilty by post, & says that a guilty plea offered at the earliest possible opportunity gets you a discount....

....should I plead guilty by post, explaining the mistake, or do it in person at the court in November? Considering the mess they have made of it so far, should I trust them to be competent at this stage?
The Rookie
At the earliest opportunity means by the first hearing, you could plea by post pointing out the error in vehicle type and that you believe that is why you were not offered a CoFP, as such you were disadvantaged by the error and feel they should only apply the same total penalty as you would have accepted.

Persoanlly, I don't trust the courts to be able to read that, so would turn up in person, any saving on fine is likely to make it worth your while.

Read Stockton http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d...;method=boolean as its relevent to your case!

Simon
Straylight
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 3 Nov 2008 - 15:05) *
Persoanlly, I don't trust the courts to be able to read that, so would turn up in person, any saving on fine is likely to make it worth your while.

Read Stockton http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d...;method=boolean as its relevent to your case!

Simon


Neither do I, & fear that trying to deal with this by post will mean they slap a massive fine & six or so points on me thinking I was at the wheel of a 5-tonner or coach. I'm going down to the court today to try & get some sense from a human being.

I'm also wondering, if the CPS had been aware of my situation correctly in the beginning they should have offered me a COFP or *possibly* a speed awareness. Since I have a clean licence, & its been that way for 20+ years, [mainly through luck if I am truthful], is there any way that I can speak to someone in the CPS directly, preferably the jobsworth who laid the case against me, point out their mistake, & see if they will consider cancelling the summons & offering me a speed awareness course. Or, is that a decision that the police take before sending the file to the CPS if they decide to prosecute. If so, is it worth trying to talk to them about it, with the same end in mind: vis, to be offered the chance of speed awareness.
southpaw82
It worked for Harriet Harperson didn't it? wink.gif
The Rookie
And they said they would do the same for anyone else (though couldn't back that up with an examples for some reason!).

Simon
Straylight
Just to fill in the blanks & detail the result. Spoke to a solicitor, & together worded lengthy explanation of how Pug 207 is not a lorry or PCV & so why am I being treated like a lunatic behind the wheel of an eighteen wheeler and please sir can I have some less punishment...etc etc.

Solicitor advised to still complete summons return by post, which since you have to have that delivered 3 days prior to the hearing meant a personal visit to the big West London Mag. Courts Admin offices on the A4. Clerk was decent bloke, took my licence & papers, & said I didnt have to attend, but if I could it would do no harm.

Phoned the court in the morning to get my listing time.....& the biddy on the blower is adamant that I dont need to show up. The more she tried to insist that "Really dear, you'll be waiting for ages, & if you've pleaded guilty by post it won't change the result one bit", the more something inside kept telling me it was really important to go.

So I did.

And when I got into court I discovered 2 things. Firstly that any writing to do with "large goods or passenger carrying vehicle" is standard bureaucratese for "Come on down for your personal appearance in: "You've Been Framed; Now Your Wallet's Getting Drained". You could be driving a bubble car or a Mercedes & they'll still rob you with the same bullshit & legal lies.

Second......and this was the kicker...That they HAD sent me a Fixed Penalty back in July, which I had genuinely NEVER received, [& either they dont send reminders for the FPO or they never came either]. On my road, & the fact that I have a shared letterbox has meant missing mail has been a constant nuisance all the time I have lived here. Fortunately the magistrate sympathised, believed me, & waived the court costs before imposing the identical £60 + 3 points I would have got with the FPO. [I was also told prior to the case that 55mph in a 40 zone is too far over the % allowance to qualify for speed awareness anyway].

So all in all, a damn good bit of luck that I followed my instinct & took the time to go to the court in person! All in all - I feel it was a result as they say, considering that had I not gone the next thing would have been a letter saying "Dear Sir, You're being robbed £200+ quid. Pay up now, so we can feel the court service does something. After all, you must appreciate that crapping all over motorists before lunch, on the grounds that their speed MIGHT have injured someone, really does go a long way to salve the conscience of an afternoon spent letting violent thugs return to the streets to continue ACTUALLY injuring people.


I left the court with my heart filled with gladness, breathing the air as a free man, only to find I'd got a parking ticket in the court car park for overstaying by 30 seconds....[I'm joking]
bluegolfboy
LoL...

You've got to take an economists view on speed... Solve the small problems and the big ones will never happen...

Strangely somewhere along the way the economist got muddled up and the big ones still happen but normally within the speed limit!!! I actually distinctly remember being out on my bike during the summer there and rounding a blind corner to be greeted by a happy old couple in a FRENCH plated car driving up MY SIDE of the road with a Carmaggedon type smile on their faces... One emergency stop, two old people having heart attacks and a great big bald spot on my back wheel and the carnage was avoided. I actually burst out laughing!!! If I hadn't then I would've been in jail just now for murdering two old folk... angry.gif


Anyway.

That's a pretty decent result you've obtained. The mags court is a good place to be when accused... Pretty fair and respectable.
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