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fred2
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2008
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A34 KINGSWAY adj to ETCHELLS ROAD, (underbridge), CHEADLE HUME.
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Received speeding NIP - driver was relative from Australia.

First time post in this section on behalf of my Brother. Our Cousin from Australia is over for a holiday doing a tour of UK & Europe. She stayed at my brothers home for a couple of days but as he couldn't get any time off work during the day to show her around he lent her his car. A few days later he received a combined NIP / S172 from Greater Manchester Police cto alleging;
Recorded Speed 61mph EXCESS SPEED (50 MPH)

We've been in touch with the Cousin who is very sorry and willing to help sort this out anyway she can. She can't recall seeing any camera flash so we don't know what device was used.

The only thing we have done at the moment is to send an email to request photos. There is no doubt she was driving but thought may as well ask for pics anyway just for the album

What would be the next move - leave it towards the end of the 28 days and them name the driver?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.

    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 15:59:20 +0100
peodude
Be prepared to provide proof, unfortunately the police won't believe you. Most importantly, was he insured on the vehicle, if not, the police often try to give 6 - 8 points to the owner for permitting it.
fred2
I will double check with the brother regarding the insurance side but there shouldn't be any problem with proof that she was over here as we could provide airline, train & coach tickets showing her travels.
BaggieBoy
The insurance check is very very important, because if you let some use your car and you didn't ensure they were legally insured to do so, you could very well find yourself receiving a summons.
ChopperPort
I have used this defence twice in the last twelve months and both times the police forces (cheshire & Nottinghamshire) wrote back asking for proof of insurance. I supplied a copy of my company car insurance which allows any driver over 17 to drive the car with the policy holders permission and that was the last I heard. So as long as you have a policy of this nature you should be fine.
fred2
To update.
Having spoken to all concerned and now got to the bottom of this. It was not my brother (the registered keeper) who gave our cousin permission to use his car. He's a painter & decorator and the registered keeper of two vehicles; a transit van used for work and a saloon car for other occasions. He was working in Derby at the time of the alleged offence using his transit van as usual. As far as he was aware his saloon car was parked at home. Another member gave the cousin permission to use the car thinking my brother wouldn't mind.

12/10/08 sent an email to request copies of any photo's to help confirm driver id. No reply was received.
18/10/08 this was followed up with a recorded letter which was signed for on 22/10/08 - Still no reply received

The cousin is very upset for causing any trouble and is willing to cooperate and has supplied us with her flight itinerary and National Express coach ticket showing her visit to us. Although no photo's or any reply from CTO have yet to be received, the 28 days is fast approaching so have now returned the combined NIP/S172 with the cousin's name & address and also enclosed a letter explaining the circumstances and included the flight & coach itinerary. This was sent SD and confirmed by RM to have been delivered 30/10/08.

Any opinions as to what is likely to happen in this situation?
spanner345
It is a T.W.O.C., whether you will be believed however is questionable.
fred2
S/pose will just have to see what they come back with and take it from there. Will keep the thread updated.
fred2
Been in touch with brother and still no reply whatsoever from CTO. Email & recorded letter asking for photo to help confirm driver were both ignored and so far nothing regarding the S172 that they received 30/10/08.

It's now one month from receiving the nip, if the CTO wish to take this further do they have 6 months from the date of the alleged offence or is it from the date of the NIP? We'd much rather get this sorted out sooner rather than been left dangling for months anxious not knowing what's going to happen.
southpaw82
Six months from the date of the offence.
fred2
Thanks SP, the balls in their court now so will sit back and see what happens. Just annoying when they don't even have the decency to acknowledge.
Pete D
No it's not in 'their court' it is your responsibilty to complete the NIP and return it before the 28th day. Failure to do so, as in amny cases recently, lead to a summons for 'Failure to Furnish' and 6 points and £300 plus fine. They do not have to provide photo's but often do. What did you say in the email and letter. Pete D
Fredd
QUOTE (fred @ Fri, 31 Oct 2008 - 14:35) *
Although no photo's or any reply from CTO have yet to be received, the 28 days is fast approaching so have now returned the combined NIP/S172 with the cousin's name & address and also enclosed a letter explaining the circumstances and included the flight & coach itinerary. This was sent SD and confirmed by RM to have been delivered 30/10/08.
Pete D
Thanks Fredd I missed that. Pete D
fred2
QUOTE (Pete D @ Sat, 8 Nov 2008 - 08:36) *
No it's not in 'their court' it is your responsibilty to complete the NIP and return it before the 28th day. Failure to do so, as in amny cases recently, lead to a summons for 'Failure to Furnish' and 6 points and £300 plus fine. They do not have to provide photo's but often do. What did you say in the email and letter. Pete D

The email & letter simply asked for copies of any photographs to help confirm the location and driver identification.
Their own literature that accompanies the nip gives Q&A's and the first one says:

"Can I see the photographic evidence - YES
You should write to the above address or email cto.enquiries@gmp.police.uk quoting the ref number of the form.
PLEASE NOTE: the photograph is used to confirm the location of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence - not as a means to identify the driver. The responsibility remains with you as the recipient of the notice to provide as much information as possible to identify the person driving."

Although not receiving any photo we have returned the completed nip/s172 providing all the information they have asked for and more including flight & coach itinerary details and a letter to further assist explaining everything in detail.
Pete D
And was she insured to drive that vehicle, the BiB may ask your prother to prove it. ? Pete D
fred2
No permission or consent was given by brother therefore he is not in a position to prove insurance.
davepoth
However the person who did permit (the keeper at the time of the alleged offence; this can be different to the registered keeper and is generally the person in charge of the keys) could be guilty if there isn't any insurance in place.
fred2
I don't know myself who gave permission but could have been one of four people; his wife, two sons or his daughter. I'm not sure if he knows himself who gave the permission. I do know from doing odd jobs on his home & vehicle that he keeps his keys when not in use in a bowl in the kitchen cupboard along with various other spare car & house keys where anyone in the household will have access to. Should this become an issue then will they define the keeper as the person who gave permission? How would this situation pan out.
Nipper1
Do they not automatically check that the car is insured when they issue a NIP ?

If so then, as presumably the car IS insured for the people who regularly use it, then nothing will flag up. Then, as the the main issue is a speeding offence, if the Australian cousin owns up and takes the rap, will they bother to check whether the the insurance is actually valid for the driver.

Surely the issue here is the licence / duristiction issues between Australia and the UK rather than insurance - although happy to be corrected.

Nipper1
arthurc
I would agree that normally, having searched the insurance database and identified that the car is insured - it wouldn't raise any further eyebrows. Normally. However this case isn't normal and the scammerati aren't going to get any money unless they find something else to provide a fund raising opportunity so they probably will take more interest. IMO.
fred2
Just to update on this. The police did write to the Australian cousin to confirm they were driving and wanted a copy of her licence which she sent. No more correspondence was ever received by either my Brother (registered keeper) or the Cousin (driver). It's now over 6 months so I guess that's the end of the matter!! I'm rather annoyed that they don't have the courtesy to let us know what is happening and simply leave people worrying for months on end. Tempted to write a letter of complaint to the Chief Contestable, at least to get something in writing saying no further action would be nice.
ict_guy
QUOTE (fred @ Wed, 8 Apr 2009 - 12:33) *
Just to update on this. The police did write to the Australian cousin to confirm they were driving and wanted a copy of her licence which she sent. No more correspondence was ever received by either my Brother (registered keeper) or the Cousin (driver). It's now over 6 months so I guess that's the end of the matter!! I'm rather annoyed that they don't have the courtesy to let us know what is happening and simply leave people worrying for months on end. Tempted to write a letter of complaint to the Chief Contestable, at least to get something in writing saying no further action would be nice.


Such courtesy would cost them money - admin etc etc. They are only in the habit of making money, not spending it! The great British system!!!!
fred2
Thought I'd get the complaints procedure rolling and now received email. Guess that's finally the end of the matter. At least a reminder to anyone who may be thinking of naming a fictitious overseas person that they do check.
----------------------------------------


I refer to your recent e-mail.

I have checked our records and can confirm that we received confirmation from <cousin> that she was the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

However, on this occasion, it has been decided that no further action will be taken.

No further action will be directed towards you, and your assistnace in this matter is greatly appreciated.

Yours faithfully

Central Ticket Office
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