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littlenipster
I was towed away on a single yellow line on Spital St on Sunday 21st September. Like the person who was towed in Hackney, this was a simple mistake on a sunday around midday, with no signs of CPZ evident, and based on the fact that there were many other people parked on single yellows around and it was a sunday.
I thought car had been stolen, spoke to police office who put me onto trace, who said that my car was not registered as towed so started formal reporting. i then spied a parking attendant who told me it had been taken

I had to go to miles away and pay the extortionate amount of £260 and it was a miserable experience full stop. When i had paid the hideous fine all I was given was a A4 receipt of payment and the credit card receipt from the machine. I was offered an appeals form which i obviously took. The plastic envelope for the PCN was on the windscreen but no PCN.

Since then i have spoken to the car pound, who told me the paperwork had gone to parking at tower hamlets. i spoke to a parkings appeal office last thursday (25th) who said she would look into where it was. I heard nothing. so today I spoke to another parking appeals office who told me that if i wanted the actual PCN i would have to write to them and there was nothing she could do. Obviously i explained that without this I had no idea of what contravention i had breached, time frame, my rights etc.

I am so frustrated. not only do i think that the towing of the car was punitive but chasing the PCN has wasted more of my appeals time.
So please can anyone help me as i think that towing away the car was completely unnecessary.

Thank you very much
Littlenipster

(sorry for long-winded explanation).

Neil B
On the basis of what you say you have a slam-dunk case already. Let me guess - the pound at Excel? - or 2nd choice Poplar.
dave-o
Wow there's been a lot of these lately. Keep on like this and they are going to feel the backlash of people turning to sites like this for help, and then finding out that most tickets can be successfully appealed.

Chin up, with a bit of effort you will likely get your money back.

If you could scan/photo, host and post pictures off all the documents you got that would be a good start.
littlenipster
was towed miles away... bromley by bow was the nearest identifying mark!
I have picture of where car was parked (empty space in image). there was a residents bay about 50metres up which had a sign saying that during particular hours it was for residents only but absolutely nothing about parking when not in the residents bay. Whilst i was talking to the police office i had to stop at least 4 other cars from parking in the very same space. I was not the only one, by a long way, who took a SYL on a sunday as ok. I will scan & post the meagre documents i got at the pound as soon as possible.
Any advice on how to post images? - any help is greatfully received.
Neil B
Had I been just a bit more obsessive I wou have considered going and standing outside Excel and advising everyone leaving!

Thankfully and just an average nutcase and still have a life away from PePiPoo, lol.
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littlenipster
hoping this link my help with images
http://cid-0f579168b6b11d01.spaces.live.co...6B11D01!108
fingers crossed!
Neil B
Bromley by Bow sounds like the Poplar pound. Thats very interesting cos it means they are ballsing ti up at more than one location.

Re your phone calls. i suggest none further. Write as they ask and get the PCN. Their response will in sending it to you, hopefully with an accompanying letter, will strengthen your case even further (can it actually get stronger?).
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littlenipster
just wondering if there is someone/a 3rd party body i should copy in my correspondance. I am slightly concerned that it is my word agianst tower hamlets that i don't have the original PCN.
Glacier2
Tower Hamlets has to provide you with a copy of the PCN upon request.
littlenipster
thank you for reassurance.
will post scans of all i received tomorrow (i,e not a lot!)
Neil B
Nipster.

See my post a moment ago in http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry297512

A Hackney case and a further link to an earlier one that is going to Adjudication.

Your case is even stronger (like I said - if that's possible!).

For you, like 'James' we want to avoid the necessity of having to go to Adjudication simply because you would wait longer for your money.

When you request the PCN, refer to your phone calls and give the name if you noted it. It is important that you make it clear that this is only a request for the PCN and should not be taken as a formal appeal.
Once you have the PCN we can help with the appeal which should be accepted by TH.
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Anorak
Looked at the two photos but they don't really help to establish the contravention. I must say that I find the Resident's Parking hours unusual. Never seen a restriction for a Sunday and yet Saturday is completely open all hours to all and sundry. The Civil Enforcement Officers social club must be in the area and Saturday is disco night (whoops showing my cynicism and age) blush.gif

Towing from that location just seems totally over the top. If there is a single yellow line then parking is permitted at certain times and therefore the location cannot be too an important thoroughfare. Until we see the paperwork my advice is move away from the London area and come to Devon. The PCN's are cheaper, no clamping policy and they don't have a towing policy unless arranged by the Police and they are too busy chasing stray sheep.
Neil B
QUOTE (Anorak @ Sun, 5 Oct 2008 - 20:42) *
I must say that I find the Resident's Parking hours unusual. Never seen a restriction for a Sunday and yet Saturday is completely open all hours to all and sundry. The Civil Enforcement Officers social club must be in the area and Saturday is disco night (whoops showing my cynicism and age) blush.gif


Sunday has been a working day in the area for the small matter of a couple of centuries! Likewise, the lack of Saturday restrictions.

Irrelevant anyway since he has such strong issues of documentation to play with.

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littlenipster
finally i have scanned in the only paperwork I received from Tower Hamlets. which is basically a receipt for my money.
you will see on the very advanced appeals form you get (!) that I do have the outer yellow sleeve for a PCN but just not the actual article. i have requested this (letter sent 3rd Oct). Will just have to wait to see how long that it takes to arrive... in the meantime is there something else I should be doing??
http://cid-0f579168b6b11d01.spaces.live.co...B11D01!115/

thank you
littlenipster
Neil B
Nope, you're all ool at the moment mate. We need that PCN to see if it gives us even more ammo - not that I think you need any.

i may post later in the 'mrjames' thread to outline his appeal - some of which will apply to you - eventually.
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littlenipster
Morning
Still no sign of the PCN from Tower Hamlets. I sent the letter on Fri 3rd Oct.
Making me rather nervous as this is my last week to appeal it is day 22 and i am presuming i have only 28 days in total.
What to do???
Glacier2
You will need to get an appeal into PATAS by the deadline. Appeal on what you have so far. Mention in the appeal that you asked TH for the PCN but they have failed to provide it. If TH provide the PCN before the hearing you can amend the appeal. If TH fail to provide the adjudicator with a copy of the PCN you win by default.
littlenipster
I am a little confused... am I appealing to TH first? and then going to PATAS?
or because TH have not sent the PCN appealing directly to PATAS?
Apologies if i am being a little dense!

Glacier2
Sorry, you appeal to TH first. They have 56 days to either accept or reject your appeal. Then you appeal to PATAS.
littlenipster
do you think i should call TH and chase the pcn or just leave them be?
annoyingly in my frustration i did not send my leeter of 3rd oct by registered post, but i do have a witness that i sent it!
Glacier2
How long have you got until the deadline for appealing to TH?

Personally I would leave them be and in your appeal you can say there was a procedural impropriety in that no PCN was served. It then places the onus on TH to prove service of the original PCN. Normally they would provide photos and a copy of the PCN. If they cannot prove proper service and/or can't provide a copy of the PCN they will have no choice but to accept your appeal.
littlenipster
The horrific incident occured on Sun 21st Sept.. therefore i am treating deadline as Friday 17th Oct and thinking that I will have to get appeal off by Wednesday pm to guarantee that i am in-time.
Glacier2
Ok then, just be sure to include the procedural impropriety with regards to the lack of a PCN.
littlenipster
What do you think is my strongest argument? In theory as I don't have a PCN I do not officially know what I did wrong which caused my car to be towed. There was no obvious signage and I wasn't blocking any access/driveway/causing a nuisance. Don't want to go in with a ignorant, wishy-washy case.. any advice would be brilliant.
dave-o
We won't know which is your strongest until we see if the PCN has any errors. It doesn't really matter though. You will include all appeal points on your appeal.

Don't worry - your appeal won't be wishy-washy, especially if they have made as many procedural errors as it looks like. The adjudicator won;t be impressed at how obstructive they've been.

Write your appeal in your own words and then post it here so we can check it over.
Neil B
Nipster.

I've just bumped the two Hackney cases to the top.

See the mrjamesg thread. Core issue is in post 13 with link to legislation. Only first issue of that applies to you.

Head your appeal 'Formal Representations to PCN ---'

Open by explaining that you are appealing in this manner rather than the prescribed manner because no information about the form or manner of appeal has been made available to you.

See also earlier comments in that thread - include a whinge on being towed, query policy etc. ---- useful to give them a way out.

Make it clear what you want - immediate cancellation and refund. Don'task, tell but politely.

Make it clear that in the unlikely event they refuse then you will have no hesitation in proceeding to PATAS.
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littlenipster
Hello all,
just about to write 1st draft for your review and advice.
Neil, you suggested that i write formal represenations to PCN.....
obviously i do not know PCN number (i was given it over the phone on 25th) but if I put it in there surely it looks like I have seen it when genuinely have not!! What to do?
thank you.
littlenipster
Here is my 1st draft.....honest thoughts & helpful hints greatly appreciated.. thank you very much
Parking Appeals Department

Tower Hamlets Parking Services

PO Box 14790

London

E14 2WA



Dear Sir or Madam:



Formal representations to appeal

Registration no [ ] towed from Spital St on Sunday 21st September 2008





I am appealing against a PCN and subsequent removal of my vehicle [make, model & reg no] on Sunday 21st September 2008.



I am unable to refer to a PCN number as no PCN was or has ever been given to me in relation to this incident.



The vehicle was parked on Spital St just after midday on 21st September. Upon my return at 1.15pm I was horrified to discover my vehicle was not where it had been left. Naturally I thought car had been stolen. I spoke to police office who put me onto trace, who said that my car was not registered. Subsequently I discovered that Tower Hamlets had forceably removed my vehicle, leaving no notice that this was the case.


I had to go to miles away to the Leven Road pound and pay the extortionate amount of £260. Having paid the hideous fine all I was given was an A4 receipt of payment and the credit card receipt from the machine (copy attached). I was offered an appeals form I obviously took.



At no point did I receive the PCN which would outline what parking contravention has been enforced and any rights to appeal. I have personally taken the time, effort and obtain the PCN from parking services and formally requested this in writing (dated 3rd October copy attached)


Consequently, Tower Hamlets have breached my rights to make not informing me of my rights to make representations (2a) or my rights to appeal to an adjudicator (2b) as laid out in 'The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 from Part 4, Reg 11.

2) A person to whom paragraph (1) applies shall immediately upon the happening of an occurrence referred to in paragraph (1) be informed—

(a) of his right to make representations to the enforcement authority in accordance with this regulation; and

(b) of his right to appeal to an adjudicator if his representations are not accepted,

and that information must include a statement of the effect of paragraphs (4) and (5).

(3) The enforcement authority shall give that information, or cause it to be given, in writing.


As a direct result of improper actions I respectfully request that I am reimbursed fully for the sum of £260.



Yours faithfully….

Neil B
That'll be fine.

Maybe query towing policy?

You worried me for a moment when you said you did get an appeals form but having finally managed to see the image I laughed! Complex stuff eh?

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littlenipster
Thank you Neil
I have totally steered away from CPZ issue for now - is that correct? if needs be I can introduce the fact that there is no clear signage on the route i took to get to spital st - (commercial, right down Fournier, left onto brick lane, right onto hanbury & finally left onto Spital).
Also should i include a picture of where the car was on a single yellow not obstructing anything - or just stay well clear of all this and see what happens next?
thank you thank you
littlenipster
dave-o
IMO yes it's worth including the picture and assertation that no obstruction was caused. It gives them a safe point to cancel on if they want it.
However, seeing as they won't want to give you your £260 back i doubt they will cancel.

You could consider putting "If this appeal is not accepted i will have no hesitation in taking my appeal to PATAS. I will also contact Hackney's MP, the Director of Environment and the Local Government Ombudsman, to draw their attention to the cynical practices in your borough."
You never know. There have been a lot of these recently, and i'm sure they've pissed enough people off now that someone will make enough fuss to get things looked at.
littlenipster
thanks chaps.
Will definitely query their towing policy and liking your much improved last sentence, Dave; good work.
One final technical point - have included enough of the legislation that is relevant to make my case?
Sorry to be a pest.
thank you
Neil B
Legislation - good question. have you put enough or have you put too much??

I think if you are going to quote that part shown then you would have to quote paras 4 and 5 as well.

I wouldn't bother, just your first sentence up to 'Reg 11' is fine.

I put the legislation in james thread so that all of you could see what we were talking about. TH are supposed to know it - not you.

I didn't intend necessarily for it to be quoted in full.

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littlenipster
phew... letter has been put in the post already!
Yet again, my gratitude for all your help & assurances for a needy 1st timer.
Will keep you posted as to what they say... fingers crossed.
Otherwise I will be back for more much needed advice and hand holding.
the littlenipster
littlenipster
Good morning all
Last night, upon my return from work, i finally received a letter from TH containing the original PCN.
Written on monday 13th, sent on Tues 14th via 2nd class so only arrived on 16th.
I have scanned and posted letter & pcn (both sides)
http://cid-0f579168b6b11d01.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!F579168B6B11D01!118/

Obviously I sent my letter on Wednesday which they should have received by now (sent registered).
Do I just sit and wait??
What is my best course of action in light of this new evidence?
thank you very much
nipster
dave-o
Those images are small and i can't see how to enlarge them.

Host them at tinypic and post them directly into this thread, using image tags.
littlenipster
Hi... sorry about that.. hope this works:


Neil B
Well your appeal is in so nothing further matters at the moment.

PCN might be considered to be flawed in the same way as the Hackney ones on the issue Southpaw raised. They don't very clearly say whom will serve the NtO - just that you will receive one?

Then it just gets funnier >>

originally you had a period of 28 days to appeal beginning with the date you collected the vehicle. They obviously didn't tell you that anyway.

You could argue that since the PCN wasn't served then the 28 days should start on the 16th when it was.

Then some hilarious muppet in that letter goes and completely ignores the law and sets a 7 day deadline and even then unclear exactly when from.

Pretty sure if they are stupid enough to reject the Adjudicator will have a fit!

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littlenipster
thank you very much Neil for your words of wisdom... so glad i found this site.
ok.. so i just wait to hear what happens next and update you when i have more news...
sent appeal registered post but suddenly thought that i wrote to a po box so fingers crossed it got there!!
nipster
Neil B
I certainly hope you update us yes!

As there are now five similar cases running that i've helped with - any development in one will affect the others.

Just realised that i was wrong on something above. Nothing bad.

I think the statute says you actually have 28 days beginning with the day the appeal details were handed to you. Since that hasn't happened, 28 days hasn't started!

Wouldn't do to push our luck though so glad you've got em posted.



littlenipster
Good morning.. nothing urgent to report as yet however yesterday I received a letter of consideration from TH about my appeal - thought i should keep you posted.

Doesn't give any time scale for them to come back to me though!!! How long do i give them and is this normal?
nipster

Teufel
56 days from (and including) the day of their receipt of your reps

they must formally deliver to you an accept or reject (else deemed to accept)
littlenipster
luckily sent recorded so I know that my letter arrived and was signed for on 17th October.
Let's hope that christmas comes early!
Neil B
Hi nipster. Please let us know any further news when you get it. As I said before, the outcome of each case could potentially impact on the others.

There are now SIX. A second TH one following you, 3 Hackney (2 rejections with one at least proceeding to PATAS 25/11 3rd unknown if appealed) and a Wandsworth, appealing soon.

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littlenipster
of course I will keep you posted. Saw someone else had been unfairly clobbered by TH, my heartfelt sympathies.
nipster
Neil B
After you posted i spoke to the lead case. He has just found out, when cleaning the car, that they damaged the wheel arch.

maybe you might want to give yours a look over.

yeah, thanks for the update. i assumed you would but some don't always. One of the Hackney cases was given all the info and not bothered confirming his actions. Fair enough i suppose but i prefer it if everyone helps each other.

littlenipster
Quick update.. have recently got my hands on some photos taken by a friend who followed my route on the fateful Sunday with a camera. sadly didn't have these in time for my letter but it would appear that the two signs at the top of Fournier St (off commercial st) were not very happy!..
This is the one on the RHS of the street (fournier is a one way) which has been bent and is facing in completely wrong direction!

Was in the area last night and noticed that has now been bent around so sort of facing the right way.
However this next picture is of it's partner on the LH side.....(this was taken last night)..


The i pottered back round to the actual scene of the crime and where i parked. I am sure that this is probably not relevant to my situation but if you look at the audi (which i was parked behind on the SYL) and look really hard you can see that the SYL extends into and along the bay and last night i checked it definitely there. this is wrong surely?.


Hopefully the 1st two images will help if TH do not comply with my letter!!
Littlenipster
southpaw82
If the bay operates restricted hours then an SYL can run through it (with time plate) to restrict parking outside of those hours. If this is not the case then the SYL should not be in the bay.

The CPZ signs are not properly maintained.
littlenipster
does this comply with what you said?
littlenipster
Good morning,

Sadly christmas as not come early and the goose that is TH is determined to get/stay fat!

Disappointed to say that i received an NOR from TH yesterday (written 1st, posted 2nd, received 4th). They have included PATAS form. They seem to ignore the fact that i was not given the correct appeals paperwork at time and that after much frustration of chasing the PCN they did send but i only received it 24hours before time to appeal ended.
Susbequent pictures show signs to the CPZ were facing wrong way and defaced (these were not used in my appeal letter).
Am still cross about the whole stinking episode and am prepared to continue my fight for restitution and would (again), greatly appreciate and your assistance in assembling a brilliant case for the adjucator.. many thanks, the nipster
here goes:


am including the patas form (sure you are very au fait with these but just in case!)




thanks
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