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thedino
Parked in an off road car park (I assume council owned, operated by NCP(could be wrong however)) outside Batchwood Hall (one of my companies nightclubs) in St Albans. Came back to a PCN under the windscreen wiper, it is a free car park operated by NCP.

The offence was code 87, parking in a disabled persons parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person's badge.



I wasn't aware that this bay was also a disabled bay, marking not exactly clear as this picture shows. I am waiting for my colleague to email me the pics of the car actually parked in the bay and other shots around the car park, however this is a shot i captured on my phone. I was parked in the bay on the left in front of the grass.



Am I correct im believing that there should be a 661A sign;


and also comply to http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bj.gif ??
Anorak
Is that a sign sticking out of the grass? If so what did it say?
bama
for this town get the TRO. have seen deeply flawed ones.
do NOT ask for it under FOI use LGA 1972.
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...;filesize=17349

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1990/Uksi_19901656_en_1.htm


http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...mp;filesize=372
thedino
QUOTE (Anorak @ Thu, 2 Oct 2008 - 22:35) *
Is that a sign sticking out of the grass? If so what did it say?


Nope, it's just a wooden post. I pixelated a child that was standing behind it (can never be too careful these days!!)

QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 2 Oct 2008 - 22:44) *


Are there any templates for requesting this information or just a basic letter/phone call?
bama
phone call to a council asking for a TRO - no way. a letter or an email - no way.
unless you trust the council to get it right. experience has shown that that trust would be misplaced.

best option is to go in person, get the TRO copy and compare it to the orginal - every page. IMV its the only option.

Should add that this one will an "Off-Street Parking places order"
thedino
QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 2 Oct 2008 - 23:22) *
phone call to a council asking for a TRO - no way. a letter or an email - no way.
unless you trust the council to get it right. experience has shown that that trust would be misplaced.

best option is to go in person, get the TRO copy and compare it to the orginal - every page. IMV its the only option.


Sorry for sounding thick, I need to ask the Council for the Traffic Regulation Order for that car park and compare it to original what (is there something else i need to gat from them?)?

Again, sorry!
bama
yes - just compare to make sure that you have been provided with a full and complete copy. they keep the original (sealed) documents and get the copies.

interestlingly there is an S.I. to enable this city to make orders for off-street. See
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si200422.htm

which only uses he 1984 and 1991 Acts and the ticket is issued under TMA 2004....
My bet is the order will talk about 'offences' and such.

Having seen other stuff from that place I believe their preparation for TMA was somewhat lacking in vigilence (i.e. crap).
southpaw82
Sign 661A is for on-street parking only. It does not have to appear in off-street parking. Restrictions must be adequately signed though.
thedino
what am I comparing the original to, the pcn I received? sory this is my first ticket so have no knowledge on the process...etc
thedino
Going to drive back to St Albans tomorrow to speak to the council regarding a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order, so will update then!

Also, are the poor/awful car park makings not ground enough for me to say sorry but I'm not paying! Surely they contravene the TSRGD 2002 , if it applies for off road car parks?
bama
it doesn't apply. but still the signs must be clear and not mislead.

"Off-steet parking order" is what you are looking for I reckon.
thedino
Here is the TRO (may take a min to open)
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=837132&da=y

And an Amendment order
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=837133&da=y

Hope this is what you wanted to see, Bama?
Anorak
Section 8(3) of the Parking Places Order says in relation to the 50% discount period offered on the PCN ' If the fourteenth day falls upon a day on which the parking shop is closed, the period within which payment of the said penalty charge shall be made to the council shall be extended until 4.00pm on the first full day thereafter on which the parking shop is open'.

Section 8(2)(d) says the PCN must state 'the manner in which and the time within which the penalty charge should be paid'.

Generally on-street PCN's only give a period of 14 days to pay at the discounted rate regardless of whether the 14th day falls upon a weekend or bank holiday. However, this Parking Places Order which is a legal document is being more generous and extending the discount period should the 14th day fall on a day the parking shop is closed.

Therefore, it may be possible to argue that the PCN is invalid because it does not fully conform with section 8(2)(d) of the Parking Places Order because the motorist is not told on the PCN that if the 14th day falls upon a day the parking shop is closed that the discount period will be extended until 4.00pm on the next full day that the parking shop is open. This means the motorist may be denied further time to pay at the discounted rate. I think the term commonly used is 'fettered'.

Is this a reasonable argument?

Oh, forgot to say that the Parking Places Order should be accompanied by the Schedules. This is a list of all the car parks/off street parking and usually provides details such as opening hours and charges etc. Have you got them?



.
southpaw82
I'd argue it the other way round. The time limit is set by primary legislation and as such the Order is ultra vires in attempting to change it. At best, it's a statement of intent. I don't think it invalidates the rest of the Order though.
thedino
QUOTE (Anorak @ Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 20:27) *
Oh, forgot to say that the Parking Places Order should be accompanied by the Schedules. This is a list of all the car parks/off street parking and usually provides details such as opening hours and charges etc. Have you got them?


I haven't, I will see if i can get them tomorrow.

Thanks
Anorak
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 6 Oct 2008 - 20:31) *
I'd argue it the other way round. The time limit is set by primary legislation and as such the Order is ultra vires in attempting to change it. At best, it's a statement of intent. I don't think it invalidates the rest of the Order though.


Hi SP...yes I agree to a degree. The primary legislation states the time requirements a PCN should contain but there is scope for it to include other details that are not required by legislation such as the observation times. The Parking Places Order (PPO) is a legal document and perhaps by being generous the authority have shot themselves in the foot just like they do by including observation times on the PCN.

I dont think the PPO is attempting to change the primary legislation as it has recently been sealed to work in conjunction with the TMA. This time extension is offered only to PCN's issued within off street parking but nonetheless it is offered and unless you read the PPO the motorist would be unaware that an extension exists. That is why I think or perhaps hope that not to include details of the extension on PCN's issued to off street vehicles does in some way illegally fetter the motorist.

I think nothing can be lost by including the above argument in any appeal along with the other faulty paperwork arguments.
bama
as mentioned above - that is not the complete document.
thedino
Extract from Schedule 1, Section B) CAR PARKS NOT SUBJECT TO CHARGE

Name Of Parking Place and
Position In Which Vehicle May Wait

BATCHWOOD HALL CAR PARKS
AND ACCESS ROADS
ST ALBANS
(wholly within a marked space)
Access Roads and adjacent areas are defined as restricted areas

Days Of Operation Of Parking Place
All days

Hours Of Operation Of Parking Place
All hours

Maximum Period For Which Vehicle May Wait
Up to 24 hours

Scale Of Charges
Free at all times

From the Footnote's

8. Penalty Charges

1) Exceeding the time limit £60.00
Discount if paid within 14 days £30.00

2) Failing to display a valid ticket £60.00
Discount if paid within 14 days £30.00

3) All other offences contained in the Order £60.00
Discount if paid within 14 days £30.00

4) Removal of vehicle £150.00

5) Council's custody of vehicle per 24 hours £15.00
thedino
Bump - is that everything needed from the council now?
thedino
bump - anyone?
thedino
Got to submit my appeal today as the 14th day is this Thursday. Any advice on what grounds i can appeal on would be much appreciated! biggrin.gif
dave-o
Were you parked in the nearest bay? The disabled pictogram is completely unreadable! The other ones are sketchy enough too.
thedino
Dave, yes I was in the bay in the left of the picture in front of the grass. There were two cars in the other bays to the right.
dave-o
I personally would think that's a stong enough point on its own. With the other two bays covered, that pictogram is little more than a faint yellow blob.

I guess you haven't appealed at all yet?

In that case, i'd say get off an informal appeal regarding the worn markings. Make it a hard-nosed one that makes it clear that you will fight all the way to NPAS. Perhaps they will cancel at informal. If not, maybe there will be errors on the NTO when it arrives.

I'd say the practically non-existant markings would invalidate it if it were to get to NPAS. Who else agrees/disagrees?
thedino
QUOTE (dave-o @ Mon, 13 Oct 2008 - 13:47) *
I personally would think that's a stong enough point on its own. With the other two bays covered, that pictogram is little more than a faint yellow blob.

I guess you haven't appealed at all yet?

In that case, i'd say get off an informal appeal regarding the worn markings. Make it a hard-nosed one that makes it clear that you will fight all the way to NPAS. Perhaps they will cancel at informal. If not, maybe there will be errors on the NTO when it arrives.

I'd say the practically non-existant markings would invalidate it if it were to get to NPAS. Who else agrees/disagrees?


Not done anything yet - are there any templates on here for informal appeals?
dave-o
No. Just write it in your own words and post it here, we can suggest changes.
thedino
Here's my attempt at the informal appeal; all comments appreciated


To Whom It May Concern:

RE: PCN xxxxxxxxxxxx

I wish to appeal this Penalty Charge as I do not believe the markings or signage are sufficient to enforce the alleged charge of “parking in a disabled person’s parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge”.

As you will see from the enclosed picture the pictogram and all lines of the bay are extremely worn. There is not sign stating disabled persons parking only. When I parked my vehicle in bay 1 there were vehicles parked in the bays marked 2 and 3 (will mark these before i send it off) and I had reversed into the bay, having not noticed the practically non-existent markings.

Please be aware that I am fully prepared to further this appeal to NPAS.

Yours Sincerely

Mr. thedino
dave-o
Looks good to me. Only one typo; 2nd para, 2nd sentence: Either "there is no" or "There is not a"

Perhaps wait for some input from other users too.
thedino
QUOTE (dave-o @ Mon, 13 Oct 2008 - 15:20) *
Looks good to me. Only one typo; 2nd para, 2nd sentence: Either "there is no" or "There is not a"

Perhaps wait for some input from other users too.


Amended, thanks Dave.
thedino
Info from Bama that I thought would be useful should anyone stumble across this thread in future

NPAS ceased to exist on March 31st. It is /PATROL/the Traffic Penalty Tribunal/ now.
thedino
Appeal posted special delivery! Watch this space....

Thanks for everyones help so far.
thedino
PCN has been cancelled!! Thanks for all your help.
bama
at the informal appeal stage ?
thedino
Yep, from only the letter discussed above.
bama
they chickened out big time. and we know why, the off-street parking is uenforceable irrespective of the lines.

a win is a win.
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