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silly cat
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2008
Date of the NIP: - 13 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 14 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Tunnel Avenue j/w Blackwall Lane SE10
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - failure to comply with traffic sign. I have been using the road for over 5 years. turning right at the junction. It was around last yr there was road works and new signs and road layout. Did not realised that the middle lane i have been using can no longer turn right. but everyone is doing the same turning so not realised it was not allowed until received the NIP.
replied to the NIP within time limit. now on 24.9.08 received summon to go to court on 2.10.08- the summon sent with a written witness statemnt made by police. but the date of the offence stated was on 10.7.08 - not the same date as the NIP. can i use this as defence that there was no NIP issued for the offence on 10.7.08? as the NIP received referred to a different date.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:52:25 +0100
Pete D
The Nip was not late it was delivered on the 14th day. Do you know what the real date of the alleged offence was ? What is the charge on the summons, read carefully. Pete D
silly cat
Thw written statement from the police was dated 10.7.08 - so I beleive the offence was on 10.7.08. But the notice of intended prosecution refer to offence dated 1.7.08. So may be they made mistake on the NIP date. So is it a good defence that they had not issued a NIP for the offence on 10.7.08.

the summon is for next Thursday- can i ask for adjournment to delay it so i can get more time for advise before deciding what to do?
The statement can be dated after the offence, it's just the date the statement was written. In the body of the text should be a date the offense was witnessed.

I would expect a statement to contain words to the effect of 'On <date> I witnessed <X> doing <Y> contrary to <whatever law it is>'

Is that included on the statement?
silly cat
The witness statement was dated 10.7.08 and the offence was also refer to on 10.7.08.

on the witness statement also said that there was vide recording - can i get copy of this recording?

It seems the nip dated 01/07/2008 was delivered late, it is too late to correct the nip.

Whether this error on the nip, is enough to invalidate, is questionable. In my opinion the nip date is vital for you to work out who was driving. Could be different drivers on different days.

An expert will be along soon.
Another option.....if the offence was on the 10/7 then to have the NIP to the OP within two working days (12/13 was a weekend) is faster than I would normally expect?

Could it be that the offence was on the 1st and the copper has written his statement on the 10th but erroneously put the date of writing as the date of the incident?

Did you ask for photos to identify the driver they show a date?
You post is so cofusing with all the various dates. Please answer the following questions:

What date did you receive the NIP?
What date was the NIP prepared on (NOT the offence date)?
What date did you send back the S172 reply?

What date did the NIP allege the offence occurred on?
What date did the offence actually occur on?
What date does the witness statement allege the offence occurred on?
What date was the witness statement written?

What date does the court summons say the alleged offence occurred on?
silly cat
date received the NIP : not too sure exactly
NIP prepared on 14.7.08
date sent back the rply 31.7.08
NIP allegered the offence occured on 1.10.08
date offence actually occured: dont know - i use the road everyday and has been doing the right turn for over 5 yrs, so not sure which date it was captured by police
witness statement said the offence was on Thursday 10.7.08
The witness statemnt also written on Thursday 10.7.08
the summon also said the date of offence was 10.7.08

silly cat
got confirmation the police operation was on 10.7.08 to catch everyone committing the offence - so the offence was captured on 10.7.08.
the girl who issue the NIP said that it was their computer system which automatically changed the date of the alleged offence to the beginning of the month ie 1.7.08
so it was the NIP incorrectly issued with the wrong offence date.
asked for copy of the video tape, told that i had to get a solicitor to request for that? is this true.
until you have entered a not guilty plea you are entitled to zilch.

did you get the name of the woman who said that the computer system automatically changes the dates of the offense ?
The substantive alleged offence occurred on 10/07/2008
You have been served a NIP apparently relating to an alleged offence on 01/07/2008 but not one warning of intended prosecution for the incident you are being prosecuted for.
You have provided them with evidence that you were driving on 01/07/2008, but they have no evidence as to who was driving on 10/07/2008.

It's time to stop randomly talking to them.

The prosecution should fail on 2 grounds - failure to serve a NIP specifying the date of the alleged offence, and no evidence that you were driving at the material time.

The date on the summons is simply for a plea to be entered. It is debatable whether it would be better to lay your cards on the table at that point, or wait until trial. From what you've told us, your defence should be 'lead pipe solid' in any case, but sometimes it can be prudent to wear belt and braces.
silly cat
Is it worthwhile trying to write to the police department issue the NIP to request for withdrawal of the case setting out their mistakes?

if plea not guilty and subsequently found guilty, what would the penalty likely be? the offence is for failure to comply with the traffic sign.
ie turning right when it should only be ahead only.
what will happen is they will issue a fresh 172 request for the right day and half you defence has dissapeared

say nothing and wait for your day in court
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 26 Sep 2008 - 11:57) *
what will happen is they will issue a fresh 172 request for the right day and half you defence has dissapeared

say nothing and wait for your day in court

That might happen, or they might see sense.
Not entirely certain that they could issue an s. 172 requirement (NIP) after a summons has been served.

My instinctive reaction would be to send a clear and concise letter with the not guilty plea, broadly setting out the grounds of the defence - the idea being that the magistrates would be likely to ask the prosecutor whether he wants to fold, thus avoiding the need for the OP to attend court.

A letter to the scammers might have the same effect, or they might wash their hands and say that it's in the hands of the court now.

Basically, the earlier the OP shows their hand, the greater the chance of the matter being dropped without having to attend court, but the more opportunity for foul play on teh part of the the scammers/CPS. That said, IMHO the chances of them trying it on, let alone succeeding, are slim.

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