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Matt_1974
Hi Guys,
I have been reading your posts with great interest icon_eek.gif and feel i have a situation which has not been covered before.

As a company car driver i was caught speeding on 18 June 2004 and the NIP was sent to the registered keeper dated 5 July 2004,it arrived at the company offices on 7 July 2004.

They completed section 2 of the NIP and returned it immediately to Lancashire Constabulary.

On 10 July 2004,as expected,i received my copy of the NIP which was dated 08 July 2004. I am fully aware that the police have extra time to track me down since it was a company car,however my question to you is this:
The original NIP served on the registered keeper was served 17 days after the alleged offence,therefore,under section 1(1)c(ii) of the RTRA 1998 is it possible to have the NIP quashed?

I am considering writing to the CC but should i actually fill in the NIP i have been sent,or simply write and make them aware that the NIP has 'time expired',i know there is an obligation for me to fill in the NIP within 28 days.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Matt
firefly
Hi Matt,

You most certainly have a case if you are sure that the NIP was sent out to the registered keeper on the date you state. By my calculations, the police sent out the NIP 17 days after the alleged offence.

i) You need to be sure that the NIP that was sent out to your company was the "first in the chain". Are you 100% sure that there is no lease company involved?
ii) If not, you would then have to have evidence (a copy of the original NIP) to show that the NIP was served incorrectly and, as such, is non-enforcable.

Is all of the above correct to the best of your knowledge?
Matt_1974
FF,

I am pretty sure that that the NIP dated 5 July is the first on e in the chain,i certainly hope so.

It is a leased car which i drive,but we own the leasing company(GE Capital Fleet) so i would have expected a letter sooner if they had been contacted direct.

I have written to the police constabulary concerned,i await the outcome,as sson as i have more details i will post.

regards
318ti
try and argue along the grounds of ACPO rules. They recommend 10% + 2 mph to allow for the callibration of speedos
Matt_1974
OK it looks like i have been mistaken,the original NIP was sent out on 24 June to the car leasing company. They gave my company name and address as the driver,who subsequently gave my name as the actual driver.

So it looks like i will have to bite the bullett on this one,unless anyone else has any suggestions that might help me out. I will be asking for the certificate of calibration of the meter of course and also the officer's log from the beginning and end of the shift.

Any further ideas would be most welcome.

matt
cjm99
Matt

I assume that you have not yet replied to your NIP?

Send back Mika's witness statement, signed and ensure that every piece of information requested on the NIP is included in the letter.
Then wait and see how well they cope with what is a perfectly legal response to the s172 requirement.

Chris
STU2
Again with a mobile unit.
I recently got off when the Police didn't turn up.
Another guy who also fought his, had the opportunity to walk when the prosecution said they had lost the NIP and couldnt prove he was driving.
I was going to be a witness for hin and got costs both time.

Go vey carefully through the "Traffic Signs Regulation & General Direction 2002" (a search should pull it up)
Not so sure on 30 mph zones - they are slightkly different to mine which was a 'temporary' zone.
You may just have a chance if the signage/lighting was incorrect.
Insist on the pictures and also the Police statement.
I think it quite likely these statements are only filled out after someone has indicated they are going to court,
Do you think they really fill one in. at the tieme for everone they snap?
Matt_1974
Guys, the information is good,thanks a million.

Where can i find Mika's witness statement,how does it work?

I haven't sent the NIP back yet.


Matt
Determined and focused to get off with this one!
Matt_1974
Ok,i can see the witness statement above now,i wasn't looking properly.

I will type it right away.

Matt
STU2
I would have loved the opportunity to challenge the Police Witness statement.
I got a copy of the one that would have been used in my case, if it had been pursued.
I also saw another similar one, again not used as the case was dropped.

Mine said " the film was dropped off at the camera unit and placed in a secure place" it goes on to add my details which could only have come from the film. So when was it viewed and when was the statement drawn up. Not on the day?
Are we supposed to believe the police draw up a statement for each car
caught speeding. I don't thinks so.
More likely after the event for those that challenge the 'ticket'
If this is so but the statement is dated on the day of the alleged offence (mine wasn't signed) then it wont stand in court. Case dismissed.
Matt_1974
Right i posted the witness statement by special delivery on 19 July.
I have recieved another NIP dated 20 July 2004 there is no letter with it,just the NIP and the FAQ form.

I notice on the NIP though the statement as follows:

Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 requires you to supply the details requested within 28 days of the date of this notice. Failure to do so will render you liable for disqualification or 3 penalty points and a maximum fine of £1000. Ignoring this notice constitutes failure to comply.

Underneath this it says:

Please note that we are unable to enter into any correspondence into this matter unless this form is correctly completed,signed and returned. Please do not send any money or your driving licence at this stage.

Huh,as if i would!

The second paragraph is what concerns me here,do i need to fill in the NIP before they will consider my witness statement?

Please help,the 28 days is running out!!!!!!
firefly
QUOTE (Lying @ cheating and mis-informed scammers)
Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 requires you to supply the details requested within 28 days of the date of this notice. Failure to do so will render you liable for disqualification or 3 penalty points and a maximum fine of £1000. Ignoring this notice constitutes failure to comply.

Utter tosh.

By submitting the witness statement you have fulfilled your s172 obligations. Absolutely unequivocal. They are mis-informing you.

QUOTE (Matt_1974)
The second paragraph is what concerns me here,do i need to fill in the NIP before they will consider my witness statement?

Absolutely not. Do not under any circumstances fill in your NIP. As I have stated above, your s172 obligations have been met. There is ample case law to back this up.
Matt_1974
FF,
Should i return this 'new' NIP with a copy of the same witness statement as before?
Should i keep returning the NIP with a copy of witness statements? I get the feeling this could go on for a while!

Matt
Mika
Matt,

If you followed the procedure precisely (you sent the letter via Special Delivery etc.), then why not take a leaf out of their book:

“Please note that we are unable to enter into any correspondence…….” icon_idea.gif .... icon_wink.gif
Matt_1974
Ok Guys,
Just received this letter in the post this morning:

Dear Sir/Madam,

ALLEGED OFFENCE 18/06/04

You are required by law to complete and return the notice that was sent to you,as in the stated case of DPP v Bloomfield. This case was heard at the Queens Bench and overrules that which you have stated or may have been advised. I would also add that in your quoted case the offence was for excess speed, I would not summons you for that particular offence.

If the notice is not returned then i intend to summons you for the offence of 'failing to furnish driver detail's for which you have a legal obligation under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. I am arranging for another notice to be sent to you,if you do not complete and return it as required and by 30/07/04 I will not hesitate to issue a summons.

Yours faithfully

Manager
Central Ticket Office
.

The notice he was arranging to be sent will be the one i received yesterday as per my comments above.

So i have 7 days to make a decision on whether or not to fill in the NIP and have it back to them.

Where shall i go from here,should i even reply?

Matt
Matt_1974
Mika,

I followed the instructions precisely,the witness statement was typed exactly as it was displayed above and i posted it special delivery on the 19th.

I have to admit,i'm not that well up on traffic law so i am relying to a great extent on what i read on here. I am prepared to fight this in court if need be as i simply wont just 'accept' what has been given to me.

Many thanks for your help and comments people,it is appreciated.

Regards
Matt
OU812
Stand your ground, they are trying to scare you into submission

If you submitted the info in the s172 witness statement they dont have a leg to stand on
STU2
I agree, they like you to pay fines but they don't like fighting it in court.
If they have the information they are entitled to you have done your bit.
firefly
Hi Matt,

QUOTE (Thick Scammers)
If the notice is not returned then i intend to summons you for the offence of 'failing to furnish driver detail's for which you have a legal obligation under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

Oh dear oh dear! They really are setting themselves up for a fall aren’t they?!

Matt, make no mistake, there is absolutely no requirement to use the NIP s172 form that the scammers provided. This precedent was set AFTER Broomfield. Jones v DPP proved it and Francis v DPP confirmed it.

I don’t have time just now, so could someone copy the relevant paragraphs for Matt and paste them over here. Ta.
Mika
Matt,

“dpp v Bloomfield” doesn’t exist. icon_redface.gif

However, “dpp v Broomfield” has been superseded by dpp v Francis 2004 and that judgement provides the following:

"15. The last authority to which I need refer is Jones v DPP [2002] EWHC 236 (Admin). In that case the registered keeper of the offending vehicle when sent the section 172 form returned the form and gave information in a covering letter. May LJ referred to Boss v Measures and to Broomfield, and said in paragraph 13 that on the facts of the instant case Dr Jones did act in substance in accordance with the statutory requirement. Section 12(1) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 was not relevant because Dr Jones denied being the driver, but -

"His letter was a document which he had signed and the letter contains all the information in writing which the form had required and indeed more."

It follows that had Dr Jones admitted that he was the driver the letter could have satisfied the requirements of section 12(1).”

It's not be your fault that the police may have deprived you of your rights under PACE. rolleyes.gif ..... icon_wink.gif
Matt_1974
Mika,
I have to hand it to you,you know your stuff,i'm impressed.

Should i write to the Central Ticket Office and make them aware of this,or should i simply wait until they issue a court summons for the Section 172 failing to furnish driver details and then bring this info to the court's attention?
How silly of them to write Bloomfield instead of Broomfield,these people want to get their own facts straight before making silly threats to otherwise safe drivers.

Do you ever get that feeling of satisfaction that comes from proving somebody wrong? i am not one to say 'i told you so' but i have to admit to being quite smug in this matter,probably because it concerns the law!!!

regards
Matt
firefly
Hi Matt,

QUOTE (Matt_1974)
Should i write to the Central Ticket Office and make them aware of this,or should i simply wait until they issue a court summons for the Section 172 failing to furnish driver details and then bring this info to the court's attention?

Do not enter into any correspondence whatsoever as it can only damage your case.

Even if you made them aware of it, they will still most likely ignore you and pass your file to the CPS. Remember the police are not the people who will be prosecuting you, it is the CPS.

The scammers don't get a brass farthing if it goes to court and that is why they are leaning on you with these false statements about having to use the form they provide. Total fantasy.

You will doubtless get more bluff and bluster letters threatening all sorts of things. Ignore them. If they want to try and stick a "failure to provide" charge on you then let them; you don't have a thing to worry about.

Again, to re-cap, do not enter into correspondence with the scammers; no matter how tempting it is.
Matt_1974
Firefly,
Thanks for your comments,i understand the picture a bit better now. The idea is to let them issue a court summons for the S172 offence,for which i have complied with,in the knowledge that it will eventually be thrown out because they dont have a leg to stand on.

But that is one charge,can they still prosecute for the speeding offence,or will the whole matter be dealt with when the S172 summons date arrives?

Can anyone recommend a good solicitor? I was told by Pepipoo that Pryce Woodrow were the ones to go with?

Matt
nigeldunne64
Matt, I'm joining a bit late but trust the guys on this one.
The odds on you needing a solicitor are about as good as the odds on Mandy keeping his nose clean icon_twisted.gif
The CTUs are experrts at writing threatening letters but rarely follow them up - a number of contributors have even threatened to sue for breach of contract after not receiving summonses promised tongue.gif

Read the links to legislation in Judicial Process forum and read S172. You have provided all the information required and signed the PACE letter. Now just sit back and wait for the 6 months to time out and then sign up to the fighting fund using half the cost of a speeding ticket saved :!:

PS Click on any of Mikas posts to find the link to the fighting fund and get a cool yellow star.
Matt_1974
I'm concerned by this bit of the letter i printed above:

I would also add that in your quoted case the offence was for excess speed, I would not summons you for that particular offence.

Matt
Matt_1974
Where's my yellow star?
firefly
Hi Matt,

QUOTE (Matt_1974)
But that is one charge,can they still prosecute for the speeding offence,or will the whole matter be dealt with when the S172 summons date arrives?

QUOTE (Thick Scammers)
I would also add that in your quoted case the offence was for excess speed, I would not summons you for that particular offence.

I think, for now, you have to take them at their word.

If they thought they had sufficient evidence to prosecute you for speeding then they wouldn't issue you with bluff and bluster letters. The fact that they are demanding you fill in the NIP leads me to believe they don't think this is the case.

What I am guessing is that because you have not filled in the NIP s172 form, and submitted your own witness statement, it has led them to believe (mistakenly) that you have not complied with you s172 obligations. In fact, you have. They will doubtlessly try and prosecute you for failure to provide, which is doomed as per Jones v DPP and confirmed by Francis v DPP.

Sit back and enjoy the ride...... 8)
Matt_1974
Hi FF,

I will know soon what they plan on doing,the last letter i received demanded i fill in the NIP and have it returned to them by 30th July or else have a 'failure to provide' charge served on me.

I have not even replied to that letter,and i have no intention to whatsoever,in fact i'm quite looking forward to going to court to prove the thick scammers wrong.

I have taken on board all the advice you guys have given me on here and i read the judicial process section(well some of it,lots there icon_eek.gif ) and now i'm gonna sit it out.

I will post here as things happen.

Thanks

Matt

By the way,can anyone tell me whats goin on here: 3some.gif
Matt_1974
At the risk of tempting fate,i'd just like to add that as yet,i have not heard from either the Constabulary or the CPS since 20 July.

I wondered if any of you had been to this website www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk and if so,what you thought about it. It does offer some advice on speeding,laws and different product reviews etc. Let me know what you think.

Regards
Matt
Matt_1974
I knew i should of kept my mouth shut!

Saturday 28 August 2004: A summons to appear before the Magistrate's Court on 13 September 2004 has just landed on my doorstep,together with the following:

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT 1967- NOTICE TO DEFENDANT- PROOF BY WRITTEN STATEMENT signed by a Peter Smith,who i assume is the Police Constable in the ticket office!

A copy of the Last NIP served on me,dated 20 July 2004.

Details on where to find the court,and a proof of earnings form.

So it looks as though i am being served with the S172 charge after all,i'm finding the summons a bit tricky to deal with though,i have the option of pleading guilty without attending court, the option of simply attending court,or plead NOT guilty to one or more offences and wait for a new court date. There is also a 'Section B'(witness details if you intend to plead not guilty to any offence) and 'Section C' to tell the court anything else to support my case.

I would appreciate some advice here guys,what do i do? confirm i will be attending court? Plead not guilty and wait for a new date? Is it time for me to get a solicitor?

PLEASE ADVISE!!!!


matt
Matt_1974
I knew i should of kept my mouth shut!

Saturday 28 August 2004: A summons to appear before the Magistrate's Court on 13 September 2004 has just landed on my doorstep,together with the following:

CRIMINAL JUSTICE ACT 1967- NOTICE TO DEFENDANT- PROOF BY WRITTEN STATEMENT signed by a Peter Smith,who i assume is the Police Constable in the ticket office!

A copy of the Last NIP served on me,dated 20 July 2004.

Details on where to find the court,and a proof of earnings form.

So it looks as though i am being served with the S172 charge after all,i'm finding the summons a bit tricky to deal with though,i have the option of pleading guilty without attending court, the option of simply attending court,or plead NOT guilty to one or more offences and wait for a new court date. There is also a 'Section B'(witness details if you intend to plead not guilty to any offence) and 'Section C' to tell the court anything else to support my case.

I would appreciate some advice here guys,what do i do? confirm i will be attending court? Plead not guilty and wait for a new date? Is it time for me to get a solicitor?

PLEASE ADVISE!!!!


matt
STU2
What is the actual charge on the summons?
firefly
QUOTE (STU2)
What is the actual charge on the summons?

Good question.

Matt, don't panic! Just type out exactly what the summons says, though it may be a bit of a pain. If it's for s172 then light up a cigar............ 8) icon_eek.gif
Matt_1974
Ok Guys,the charge is as follows:

On 30/07/04 at Ormskirk,you having been required by or on behalf of the chief officer of police for Lancashire,failed to give information which it was in your power to give and which might have led to the identification of the driver of a vehicle,namely ford registration Y438 KVH,who was alleged to have been guilty of an offence.
Contrary to section 172(3) of the road traffic act 1988 and schedule 2 to the road traffic offenders act 1988.

So i think it must be the S172 charge then? I have to reply to this summons within 7 days of receiving it,should i confirm i will be attending court and take my copy of my witness statement with me,or can i forward this now?
firefly
Hi Matt,

QUOTE (Very Silly CPS)
On 30/07/04 at Ormskirk,you having been required by or on behalf of the chief officer of police for Lancashire,failed to give information which it was in your power to give and which might have led to the identification of the driver of a vehicle,namely ford registration Y438 KVH,who was alleged to have been guilty of an offence.
Contrary to section 172(3) of the road traffic act 1988 and schedule 2 to the road traffic offenders act 1988.

Oh dear, you have been summonsed for a s172 offence icon_wink.gif .

You will have to "brush up" on your case law for your pre-trial review (?) on the 13th September. 8)

*EDITED TO KEEP CARDS CLOSE TO CHEST!*
Patch
I want to do this,

I must go get gatso'd and join in the fun
Matt_1974
Firefly,excellent. Thanks for bringing that information to my attention. I shall take a printed copy with me just to make sure that i have all the details!!!

What i'd like to do is forward this info to the court now,along with my witness statement and proof of delivery.

One other question,Can i still be convicted of the original offence for speeding? regardless of the outcome of my hearing on the 13 september?

regards

Matt
cjm99
QUOTE
Can i still be convicted of the original offence for speeding?


Yes, you can.
Papers can be laid within six months of the speeding offence.

It is therefore imperative that you do not give them any information, YET.

Plead not guilty to the s172 charge. The trial date will then be set at the next scheduled hearing. This will probably take you to Nov,Dec which I assume will be very close if not beyond the trial window for the speeding. Then you can let them have it, both barrels.

Chris
Matt_1974
Chris,good point :!: I'll do exactly that.

Regards

Matt
Matt_1974
Didn't attend court on 13 September for the pre-trail hearing. Have received a letter today informing me that the case was adjourned till 27 September,at which time a suitable date for the trial will be decided upon that is convenient for all parties concerned.

I await the outcome!
Matt_1974
Guys,
I'm a bit concerned about something,i have just read the frequently asked questions section on the Pepipoo forum and notice that 'Mika' has updated the PACE Witness Statement.
This new format is different to the one i submitted recently and now has me thinking 'am i open to furhter incrimination?'

Below is an EXACT copy of the letter i submitted: Can anyone confirm this is sufficient


Lancashire Fixed Penalty Office
P.O BOX 273
BLACKBURN
BB1 2XA


WITNESS STATEMENT
(C.J. Act 1967, s9: MCA 1980, s102: M.C. Rules 1981, r70)

Date: 18 July 2004

NIP Ref: C13587293

Vehicle registration number: Y**8 K**

Dear Sir or Madam,
Further to the above Notice of Intended Prosecution: I confirm that the following individual was driving the above vehicle at the time of the alleged motoring offence:

Driver Licence Number: ***** ***** ***** Date of Birth: 04/07/74
Mathew ******
11 ***** Avenue
Liverpool L** ***

I have not received the caution required by paragraph 10.1 of PACE Code C [Mawdesley -v- the Chief Constable of Cheshire [2004] 1 All E.R. 58]. Therefore, it is my understanding that, and this statement and the information in it is submitted subject to the condition that, it may not and will not "be given in evidence to a court in a prosecution".

Yours sincerely


The letter was both signed and dated on the day of posting.


regards
Matt
DW190
Matt,

My own opinion of what you have sent is its ok.

The only part missing is the "if I knowingly or recklesly blah blah blah"

Some might say because that bit is missing that it cannot be used in evidence. How Nice.

Give Officer Pemberton my regards.

Also remind him he failed to honour his contract with me. After all the promises and threats to prostitute he decided to take no further action.

He would be a good one to take up a challenge, backs off when the going gets tough
firefly
Hi Matt,

What happened on the 27th September then? icon_wink.gif
Talion
QUOTE
After all the promises and threats to prostitute he decided to take no further action.


laugh.gif rolleyes.gif
Matt_1974
Ha Ha,well spotted Talion.

FF: I'm still awaiting the letter informing me of the trial date! rolleyes.gif

DW thanks for info,i shall look out for Officer Pemberton,maybe he's the prostituter in my trial. icon_wink.gif
DW190
QUOTE
maybe he's the prostituter


Nah he's the guy who manages the scam office in Blackburn. Losses his bottle when the going gets tough.

Dear Sir/Madam

With reference to your previous correspondence

I refer to your letter dated 10 October regarding the above alleged offence of excess speed.

My position has already been made clear and I do not intend to enter into legal arguments with you as the correct place for that is the Magistrates' Court. As the notice remains unsigned, I am arranging for a summons to be issued for failing to provide the identity of
the driver.

Yours Sincerely,
A Emberton
Manager, Central Ticket Office




Dear Sir/Madam

Having looked at the file it has been decided not to take the matter any further.

Yours Sincerely
A Emberton
Manager, Central Ticket Office
Matt_1974
DW: Your dead right! The name at the bottom of all my correspondence from Lancashire Constabulary is in fact A Emberton. I hope i get the chance to challenge him in court.

I have to admit,when i first got my NIP i was terrified of getting the fine and points on my licence,but after reading info on this forum i thought 'why the hell shouldn't i challenge it' instead of just accepting whatever they try to lay on me. On reflection,i'm glad i made that decision,because now i'm actually LOOKING FORWARD to the trial ohmy.gif 8)
Matt_1974
Its just arrived today:

Lancashire Magistrate's Courts
Chorley,Ormskirk and South Ribble Petty Sessions Areas (1998/2003/2007)

Case Number: 2219116
Date: 27/09/04

Notice of Adjournment

The magistrates' today adjourned the hearing of your case until 9:30am on the 26th Day of October 2004 at the magistrates court sitting at Derby Street, Ormskirk (adult-"F")

YOUR CASE HAS BEEN ADJOURNED FOR TRIAL

You will be required to attend court for the trial, and you will be expected to bring with you any witnesses you wish to call and documents which you intend to produce as part of your case.


Well,i would have preferred the date to have been sometime during December,then i would be close to the six month deadline of December 18th the police have for serving the original speeding offence. Nevermind!

wish me luck!

regards
Matt
DW190
Are you still having problems with your health that are aggravated about three days before a court hearing and get better two days after.

It works for G Train Robbers why not you.
Matt_1974
Its that bronchitis again,it always plays up around 24th october for some reason. icon_wink.gif 8)

Another question: jones v dpp where can i get a copy of this? i've searched the pepipoo forum but cannot find it anywhere,can somebody paste a link to it please? anyone?

matt
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