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jenniejen
right i have serious problems here sorry in advance for the long post

back in january i was pulled in stranraer by a female officer claiming that 2 of her colleagues had apparently seen me overtaking on a single solid white line, she clearly stated that she had not seen me do this but was going to deal with this by way of a fixed penalty.
now i thought ok i dont remember that and went on my merry way.
anyway after a rather good holiday in northern ireland i came home and realised i had lost my slip so decided to wait for the reminder so i could take my punishment.
when that came through i was now being done for overtaking on a double solid white line !!!
confused i wrote to them asking for photographic evidence, which never arrived.
then in june i recieved a summons and all the paperwork with it now claiming i had overtaken on a double solid white line with hatch markings in !!!
the summery of evidence also was a complete load of poo.
it claimed that the officers in the unmarked car had seen me driving horrifically, in heavy traffic and severe fog.
well there was no traffic, there wasnt a cloud in the sky and i didnt exceed 50mph at any point. the only thing that was true was that i did overtake a car with a trailer. most certainly not on any type of road markings.
so i sent off another request for photographic evidence, a request under the freedom of information for all documentation in relation to my case and a letter stating that i was not happy with any of their actions so far.
nevertheless i recieved another summons stating i must appear in court in november because i had plead not guilty (i did no such thing !)
now dont get me wrong if i have done this and they prove without a doubt that i did then i'll take my punishment however i get the distinct impression that i am being taken the pee out of.
has anyone got any advice for me in how i deal with this ??
Keds
What I am going to say is for English law, but I assume it's the same for Scotland.

You can request the photo's, but that is all, even then the photo's may not be sent out, but normally they are. You are not entitled to any evidence until you plead Not Guilty. I assume by the way you were talking requesting all the details, that they assumed you were pleading not guilty. Also, what is to suggest there is any photographic evidence? It sounds like 2 coppers in a car saw you overtake, the chances of there being any photo evidence is not high (unless there car was fitted with a camera, which was turned on).

Their proof will be 2 policemen in a car, if you suggesting what they are saying is not correct then you need to disprove it. Can you check out the official weather conditions for that area on that day, can you from their statement say exactly where the offence took place and go back to it and see what the road markings are.

You are up against 2 policemen, it's going to be a hard struggle.

Gaza
QUOTE (jenniejen @ Thu, 21 Aug 2008 - 01:24) *
back in january i was pulled in stranraer by a female officer claiming that 2 of her colleagues had apparently seen me overtaking on a single solid white line, she clearly stated that she had not seen me do this but was going to deal with this by way of a fixed penalty.

Did you ask why her colleagues had not stopped you themselves? I would guess that they were going in the opposite direction.

anyway after a rather good holiday in northern ireland i came home and realised i had lost my slip so decided to wait for the reminder so i could take my punishment.

You don't get a reminder for a FPN issued at the roadside.

when that came through i was now being done for overtaking on a double solid white line !!!

Single solid white line or double solid white line is irrelevant. The offence is crossing the solid white line. Double solid lines are used when vehicles on both sides of the carriageway are not allowed to overtake. Single solid lines are normally used in conjunction with dashed lines which mean that vehicles on the side with the dashes can cross them if it is safe. Can you post a specific location so we can look on Google Maps and see what markings are shown.

confused i wrote to them asking for photographic evidence, which never arrived.

Probably because it doesn't exist. If two coppers in a non-video equipped car saw you cross the lines then it will be enough. You could ask the PF if the car was equipped with video and if it was then you wnat a copy.

then in june i recieved a summons and all the paperwork with it now claiming i had overtaken on a double solid white line with hatch markings in !!!

As I said above, single solid white line or double solid white line is irrelevant. The offence is crossing the solid white line.

the summery of evidence also was a complete load of poo.
it claimed that the officers in the unmarked car had seen me driving horrifically, in heavy traffic and severe fog.
well there was no traffic, there wasnt a cloud in the sky and i didnt exceed 50mph at any point. the only thing that was true was that i did overtake a car with a trailer. most certainly not on any type of road markings.

You will have difficulty disputing anything they say they witnessed. Who is the Sheriff going to believe: you or two coppers?

so i sent off another request for photographic evidence, a request under the freedom of information for all documentation in relation to my case and a letter stating that i was not happy with any of their actions so far.

The FOI would be no use to you. Any evidence they were planning on using against you would be in your citation pack.

nevertheless i recieved another summons stating i must appear in court in november because i had plead not guilty (i did no such thing !)

If you failed to enter a plea then they would enter a not guilty plea on your behalf.

now dont get me wrong if i have done this and they prove without a doubt that i did then i'll take my punishment however i get the distinct impression that i am being taken the pee out of.

has anyone got any advice for me in how i deal with this ??

You need to take a deep breath, slow down and study the evidence they have provided. You may also want to engage a solicitor. You don't say where you live but if you are in England you will need to either (a) contact a solicitor in Scotland or (b) find a specialist motoring solicitor in England who is also a member of the Scottish bar. Those will be few and far between and VERY expensive.

cjard
QUOTE (Keds @ Thu, 21 Aug 2008 - 07:49) *
Can you check out the official weather conditions for that area on that day


I'd presume the MET office would have some sort of record of the weather, hopefully.. And that would be a good thread to start pulling at in court to see if your competent solicitor can unravel the whole stitch up..
emanresu
QUOTE
You are up against 2 policemen, it's going to be a hard struggle.


In Scotland it needs 2 policemen to testify for corroboration unlike in England where it is one. Single policewoman on her own would not be able to do it. It may be there is some "co-operation" between the 3 officers but that would need a paranoid individual to think that.

The choice you have is to fight it in the hope it can be shown that this "co-operation" existed or to go for a guilty plea. Difficult choice!
jeffreyarcher
@jenniejen. As has already been said, there is unlikley to be any photographic evidence. If traffic cops had seen you, they would have pulled you themselves.

What have you been charged with? Is it Section 36., failure to comply with a traffic sign (i.e. the double white lines)?

QUOTE
had apparently seen me overtaking on a single solid white line

It is not a traffic sign offence to cross a single white line (even if you did), although it may give rise to something else (e.g. DWDCA / DC ).

QUOTE
because i had plead not guilty (i did no such thing !)

Because you have refused to plead, the court wil have entered a 'Not Guilty' plea on your behalf

Do you live near the locus?
If so, and assumimg that you have been charged with the traffic sign offence, it would seem that you should get photographic evidence that there is no 'double white line system' which is what a "double solid white line with hatch markings in" is.

QUOTE (emanresu @ Thu, 21 Aug 2008 - 11:32) *
In Scotland it needs 2 policemen to testify for corroboration unlike in England where it is one. Single policewoman on her own would not be able to do it. It may be there is some "co-operation" between the 3 officers but that would need a paranoid individual to think that.

Her two colleaguses 'saw' it, that is sufficent.
jenniejen
cheers for the help guys.
unfortunately i live in luton a mere 400 miles away so its not like i can just pop out and get some pics.
i expect the only way i can try to discredit these guys is by proving that they are lying about the weather.
also the only witness i have is my other half who was in the car with me, and i dare say that they wouldnt want to take anything he has to say as he is biast.
there is plenty in the summary of evidence which is total poo however the only bit i can prove would be the weather.
ill just have to hope that is enough to make the justice see that all is not right
Keds
if all your defence now is to discredit them about the weather, then you might have a problem, it probably might not be enough. Unless you can prove that at the time of the offence the area in question was experiencing a mini heatwave and every where was glorious sunshine you are really up against it. I notice that you were caught in January up in Scotland, correct me if I'm wrong, but the weather in that part of the country at that time of the year is not likely to be glorious sunshine and possibly fog could have been around.

Even if you do get evidence from the met office that in that area it was sunny, all the police would have to say was 'at that time, in that area, there was fog', then you are left with no where to go.

Yes, I'm afraid, your partner would be seen to be biased, where as 2 policemen have nothing to loose or gain.
jenniejen
well i managed to find a picture of the claimed location on google maps. i know for a fact i didnt overtake anyone where they are claiming. my word against theirs.
i emailed the met office and they can provide me with details of the weather so im going to get it for the area where they claimed to have seen me commit the offence and where they stopped me.
also i think i may email stenaline as i travelled on the ferry that day so there should be a log on the weather conditions in regards to the crossing.
tbh i know they are lying because i can pinpoint exactly where i overtook the car with trailer. i just wish i had the details of the fella who was pulled with me as he overtook first and i followed.
Pete D
Has the claimed location got single or double white lines ? This road sports loads of Traffic cams and you could try and see what the traffic conditions were at the time you were alledged to have overtaken. This is a very busy road due to the ferry timings so I find it difficult to see that that road had no traffic. You are going to need a lot of facts to shake this. You really should have dealt with this at the FPN stage. Pete D
blood
QUOTE (Pete D @ Fri, 22 Aug 2008 - 14:59) *
HAs the claimed location got single or double white lines ? This road sports loads of Traffic cams and you could try and see what the traffic conditions were at the time you were alledged to have overtaken. This is a very busy road dur to the erry timings so I find it difficult to see that that road had no traffic. You are going to need a lot of facts to shake this. You relly shoul have dealt with this at the FPN stage. Pete D


Can the location be googled with a Sattelite image so we can View it??
jenniejen
yep i found the location on google maps. the location is exactly what they say it is, but i know i didnt overtake there. however i know i cant prove that. it seems to me that they cant prove that i did other than the these 2 oficers saying i did.
if you want to have a look its the a75 gretna-stranraer road at the junction with the a747 glenluce-glassterton road.
i didnt know you could view traffic camera pics
Scottish Driver
Yep, the junction has hatched double unbroken lines both sides of it so crossing them would be an offence, it's just past a crawler lane up the hill, you maybe were out overtaking on the crawler and did not notice you were on the hatching ?

You can view in google by entering, "A75 Glenluce" into the search if anyone wants a look
Pete D
I did not say you could. But the operators could provide you traffic flow information at that time in that area. I would suggest the traffic flow data would not support your suggestion that there was no traffic. The evidence is stacked against you I am afraid. Have you got the met office report for the day yet. Pete D
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