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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
8oro_dave
Hi everyone, new to this forum so please go easy on me. I got an NIP through the post last week, for going 48 mph in a 40 zone, and sent it back saying I want to go to court as I genuinely believe I wasn't speeding. I know exactly where the fixed camera is (GATSO's) and the speed limit. I always slow down for it. Reading the advice on the NIP wizard I shouldn't have been so hastey in sending the form back.

Any advice would be greatly received. Thanks in advance!
Watcher
And the results of the NIP wizard you are advised to complete?
8oro_dave
QUOTE (Watcher @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 17:36) *
And the results of the NIP wizard you are advised to complete?



It says:

You should note that the law requires you to proivde the information requested in section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are thinking of obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

You should note that there is nothing gained from responding any ealier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to revieve a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members of the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court and defend yourself.


Granted I shouldn't have sent it back before considering my options, but I've been working away and was panicking about getting it back in time. I definitely want to contest it as I'm as sure as I can be that I slowed down for it. Seeing the eveidence would be a big help!
nemo
Watcher's point was that you should complete the NIP Wizard and post ALL of its output back into this thread.. wink.gif
Zed Victor One
Possiblya a daft question but are you sure this was a fixed camera and not a mobile unit, it's not unknown for them to run mobile units either side of a fixed camera for the very reason you mention. They're aware that people speed on the approach and exit and only slow up for the camera and will sometimes position a mobile unit accordingly.
Just a thought.
8oro_dave
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2008
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A595 Howgate travelling North (NF8)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was travelling on the road at the specified time. I know exactly where the fixed cameras are and checked my speed as I went through and it was 40 mph. The camera is at the bottom of a slope.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:50:04 +0100
cjard
QUOTE (8oro_dave @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 17:27) *
Hi everyone, new to this forum so please go easy on me. I got an NIP through the post last week, for going 48 mph in a 40 zone, and sent it back saying I want to go to court as I genuinely believe I wasn't speeding. I know exactly where the fixed camera is (GATSO's) and the speed limit. I always slow down for it. Reading the advice on the NIP wizard I shouldn't have been so hastey in sending the form back.

Any advice would be greatly received. Thanks in advance!



I'd have probablyu taken the approach of asking for photos to identify the driver; though they may have sent only one (cause that's all you need to make an id) if the camera was a fixed site they might have sent 2 showing your vehicle speed.. you can then work out whether to cop to it or not.

As is though, your current approach can work fine; you strongly believe you were not speeding and they must provide evidence that you were. Taking a firm line as you have and outright saying you want to go to court immediately might make them think it would be wise to review the evidence ahead of losing a court case, so you may find that you were right about your speed and that it goes away.

Do note that you still have a legal requirement to tell them you were driving. if you did that by implication, you should perhaps write explicitlty to complete your S172 requirement
8oro_dave
QUOTE (cjard @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 09:09) *
QUOTE (8oro_dave @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 17:27) *
Hi everyone, new to this forum so please go easy on me. I got an NIP through the post last week, for going 48 mph in a 40 zone, and sent it back saying I want to go to court as I genuinely believe I wasn't speeding. I know exactly where the fixed camera is (GATSO's) and the speed limit. I always slow down for it. Reading the advice on the NIP wizard I shouldn't have been so hastey in sending the form back.

Any advice would be greatly received. Thanks in advance!



I'd have probablyu taken the approach of asking for photos to identify the driver; though they may have sent only one (cause that's all you need to make an id) if the camera was a fixed site they might have sent 2 showing your vehicle speed.. you can then work out whether to cop to it or not.

As is though, your current approach can work fine; you strongly believe you were not speeding and they must provide evidence that you were. Taking a firm line as you have and outright saying you want to go to court immediately might make them think it would be wise to review the evidence ahead of losing a court case, so you may find that you were right about your speed and that it goes away.

Do note that you still have a legal requirement to tell them you were driving. if you did that by implication, you should perhaps write explicitlty to complete your S172 requirement



Thanks for the advice, that makes me feel a little better. I was just going to pay it, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it when I believe I wan't speeding. Thinking back, there might have been a car directly infront of me, so if I've got an NIP then he's probably going through the same thing!
The Rookie
QUOTE (cjard @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 09:09) *
As is though, your current approach can work fine; you strongly believe you were not speeding and they must provide evidence that you were. Taking a firm line as you have and outright saying you want to go to court immediately might make them think it would be wise to review the evidence ahead of losing a court case, so you may find that you were right about your speed and that it goes away.


I guess there is a first time for every thing, and this would almost certainly be the first time they did any such thing!

Simon
8oro_dave
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 09:50) *
QUOTE (cjard @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 09:09) *
As is though, your current approach can work fine; you strongly believe you were not speeding and they must provide evidence that you were. Taking a firm line as you have and outright saying you want to go to court immediately might make them think it would be wise to review the evidence ahead of losing a court case, so you may find that you were right about your speed and that it goes away.


I guess there is a first time for every thing, and this would almost certainly be the first time they did any such thing!

Simon



so do u think i'd just be better of paying the fine?
The Rookie
Well you may no longer have the option, but bear in mind that in court your fine will be circa 50% of one weeks take home pay (pay less tax and NI only) plus nearly £100 costs, nothing you have currently stated gives me much hope of an NG verdict, not having photo's to make any checks (or even determine the device used) makes it hard to give any other menaingful advice.

Simon
cjard
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 09:50) *
QUOTE (cjard @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 09:09) *
As is though, your current approach can work fine; you strongly believe you were not speeding and they must provide evidence that you were. Taking a firm line as you have and outright saying you want to go to court immediately might make them think it would be wise to review the evidence ahead of losing a court case, so you may find that you were right about your speed and that it goes away.


I guess there is a first time for every thing, and this would almost certainly be the first time they did any such thing!

Simon



I'd hope it happens more than we realise.. What I meant was (in case it was misconstrued), if I'd gotten a speeding ticket when I knew damn well I wasnt speeding, and I wrote back to them so convinced that I was innocent, inviting them to review their evidence and take me to court, that they reviewed it and discovered they'd made a mistake.. I'd hope they would withdraw rather than cover up and pursue.

The OP [seemed to be, when he wrote his first post,] adamant he wasnt speeding*, and though that is not a defence in itself, if he informs them of this it may well turn out that the mistake is on their part. I doubt we'd hear about the majority of these situations, because they are probably resolved long before they hit pepipoo.

As noted to the OP, he can maintain he wasnt speeding for as long as he likes, so long as he doesnt line himself up for S172 by refusing to nominate, and he can take the argument to court to make them work for their conviction..

*Note there is a huge difference between:

"I am adamant that I was not speeding"
and
"I can't believe I was speeding"

Only the former would make me vehemently pursue refuting their evidence as a defence. If the OP's adamance has changed to disbelief, I'd look for other avenues
8oro_dave
QUOTE (cjard @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 10:25) *
I'd hope it happens more than we realise.. What I meant was (in case it was misconstrued), if I'd gotten a speeding ticket when I knew damn well I wasnt speeding, and I wrote back to them so convinced that I was innocent, inviting them to review their evidence and take me to court, that they reviewed it and discovered they'd made a mistake.. I'd hope they would withdraw rather than cover up and pursue.

The OP [seemed to be, when he wrote his first post,] adamant he wasnt speeding*, and though that is not a defence in itself, if he informs them of this it may well turn out that the mistake is on their part. I doubt we'd hear about the majority of these situations, because they are probably resolved long before they hit pepipoo.

As noted to the OP, he can maintain he wasnt speeding for as long as he likes, so long as he doesnt line himself up for S172 by refusing to nominate, and he can take the argument to court to make them work for their conviction..

*Note there is a huge difference between:

"I am adamant that I was not speeding"
and
"I can't believe I was speeding"

Only the former would make me vehemently pursue refuting their evidence as a defence. If the OP's adamance has changed to disbelief, I'd look for other avenues



OK cheers guys, going to give Cumbria a ring and explain im going to accept the fixed penalty. Sending it off today. Just hope it gets accepted!
The Rookie
QUOTE (cjard @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 10:25) *
I'd hope it happens more than we realise.. What I meant was (in case it was misconstrued), if I'd gotten a speeding ticket when I knew damn well I wasnt speeding, and I wrote back to them so convinced that I was innocent, inviting them to review their evidence and take me to court, that they reviewed it and discovered they'd made a mistake.. I'd hope they would withdraw rather than cover up and pursue.


We would all hope that, unfourtunately experience tells us it doesn't happen like that, so telling the OP it may was misleading.

We even had one poster view the video and it showed the 'money shot' being when the vehicle was travelling at right angles to the laser, yet the clerk still thought it was OK, so small errors are really beyond them.

Simon
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