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egos_86
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2008
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5103 Princess Road, Near Maudleth Road West, Manchester
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving down the Princess Parkway late at 1.14 in the morning. It is a 40mph speed limit and as I passed through the camera I was travelling at this speed. I know this as I checked my speedo after slowing down once I had seen the camera. The NIP said i was doin 50mph

The camera was a monitron and there was no markings on the road either. The road was completely empty too.

NB: I have missed the 28 days to comply as I never recieved the 1st NIP dated 20th june 08 until yesterday along with the 2nd NIP they sent dated the 11th Aug 08 almost 2 months after the offence however this is due to not checking my mail.

I have a clean license so far and pay £1400 on insurance as Im a young driver. The £60 fine is not a problem but if my insurance jumps up lets say £300 for an offence that Im sure Ive not committed then this is literally highway robbery.

Could someone please let me know what sort of action is best to take. I intend to fight this till the end as I pay enough for the privilige to drive my car without being fined etc for something I havent done.

One more thing to note is that I have a VERY powerfull audio system in my car that makes my rear windscreen vibrate to the extent that you can hear the tune bein played by the windscreen. I read somewhere that vibrations like this can throw off the reading. Is this just an urban myth. What are the steps in appealing this?? I know this will have been posted before so any links to previous posts or ANY help will be greatly apprecitaed.

What is the 1st step though??? Thanks in advance




NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
- England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:23:58 +0100
simonfb10
You can check your speed by the lines marked in the road.
http://www.gazza.co.nz/distance.html

egos_86
there were no markings on the road though. Should I write to them quickly though before I get a court summons or is it best to leave it untill after I have the court summons. I am right in saying that the more I delay the case the better?? Maybe ask for picture evidence or speed camera calibration certificates or do I wait untill a later stage before I do this.

I know that there are procedures to follow when appealing but I have no idea what they are??
simonfb10
Im sure all fixed Gatsos have/require markings
bluetunes
Hi,

I've found this, http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso6.htm.

Unfortunately this type of camera doesn't need road markings.

The best thing to do would be to ask for photographic evidence. You'll need two separate photos of the incident, so that you can work out your speed. I'd also ask for the calibration certificate as well, so you can find out when it was last serviced etc...

You could always go back to the location and take some measurements yourself, to check accuracy (but these will have to presented by 'an expert' if you take them into court).

I would do this now, before the court summons arrives.

Regards
cjard
Is your reason for not checking your mail a good one?

"My grandma was terminally ill and I was driving to see her. Having no commitments, I stayed with her for the final 5 weeks of her life and she just died. I just got back to find two S172 requests. There was noone available to open or forward my mail" - a good reason
"I couldnt be arsed opening the envelope" - not a good reason

If you have a good reason for not providing info within the 28 days, you will not be found guilty of failing to provide.


Next:

Were you driving?

Right now, you have to nominate a driver. Technically, you are guilty of failing toespond tothe S172 equest, but (from experience) they tend to put these cases to court very late on and include a statement that "to date, 5 months on, we have heard nothing from Malcolm X" - my implication is that if you nominate now, albeit late, they might consider NOT PROSECUTING YOU for failing to provide, and it certainly helps your credibility if you can honestly say to a court that you provided the info as soon as reasonably practical


Then:

Were you speeding?

Just because you admitted driving, does not mean you were speeding. Let's set aside the "I drive with music at such an earsplitting volume that it makes the back window resonate at a frequency in hundreds of hertz which I reckon can upset a GHz radio beam so much a speed camera will be inaccurate when gunning my car" argument for now because it probably won't wash very well with a magistrate who is tired of the mobile discos waking his neighbourhood up every night.

You seem to indicate from your original post that you were well aware of the camera location and the speed limit and were travelling well within that limit. Is this true? That being so, there need to be two pieces of evidence that corroborate your speeding and they cannot differ by more than 10%. It is unlikely, if you were not exceeeding the limit, that both sets of evidence would agree that you were
egos_86
Ok Cheers peeps for the help. BUT how do I use the photos they send me to defend myself if there are no markings on the road. How can I calculate the distance/ speed etc if there are no markings?? I will write the letter tonight. Are there any links to sample letters I can use??
Gaza
QUOTE
The best thing to do would be to ask for photographic evidence. You'll need two seperate photos of the incident, so that you can work out your speed. I'd also ask for the calibration certificate as well, so you can find out when it was last serviced etc...


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. At this stage the OP is not entitled to any "evidence". He will only be entitled to evidence if he is summonsed to court and pleads not guilty. Technically he can't ask for the calibration certificates either at this stage although most forces will provide them if asked.

Also people need to read the postings a bit more carefully. The OP was caught by a Monitron, not a Gatso. Read THIS SITE for information on how they work.

egos_86 - your loud sound system is completley irrelevant and cannot influence the inductive loops on the road.

From reading your post I'm not sure if you have replied to the NiP. If not you need to do it immediatley as failing to provide the info will result in 6 points and circa £250 fine.
Watcher
And if I were you I'd keep quiet about your hearing destruction machinery - NOT likely to win you much support from the 'powers that be'!! huh.gif
egos_86
In reply to the post above, the reason for me not opening my mail was that it was sent to my mums address. I hadnt visited her in around 2 months and she knows not to open my mail. She would only call me to inform if a parcel or recorded delivery arrives other wise she assumes it junk mail or bills.

Cjard, you state that two peices of evidence must agree. I take it one is the photo/ inductive loop readings, what is the other. I was definatley not speeding at the time based on the assumption that my speedo is accurate (which I know it is as Ive tested it with a GPS device).

So basically, I need to reply to the NIP and confirm that I was driving and then just wait untill I recieve the court summons, and THEN request supporting information/evidence???

Many thanks for all the help, didnt think it would arrive this quick smile.gif

southpaw82
Current fines for failing to provide driver ID is now in the range of upwards of £500.

A GPS device is not an accurate way of calibrating a speedmeter - it's not accurate enough.

For future reference egos - The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986, Reg 97:

No motor vehicle shall be used on a road in such manner as to cause any excessive noise which could have been avoided by the exercise of reasonable care on the part of the driver.

Your loud stereo can get you prosecuted for this or a £30 FPN issued.
egos_86
'No motor vehicle shall be used on a road in such manner as to cause any excessive noise which could have been avoided by the exercise of reasonable care on the part of the driver'

Define 'excessive' and 'reasonable care'? Is excessive mean louder than when it rolled out of the factory? So ALL use of aftermarket exhausts, induction kits, dump valves (car products that increase the noise) is illegal but the possesion of the fitted device is legal. As far as I am aware, a noise that is deemed to be excessive and a disturbance must exceed a certain decibel reading which from what I remeber is around 100db, about the same as pnematic drill. Mine with windows closed would be much less than this wink.gif

cjard
QUOTE (egos_86 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 14:16) *
In reply to the post above, the reason for me not opening my mail was that it was sent to my mums address. I hadnt visited her in around 2 months and she knows not to open my mail. She would only call me to inform if a parcel or recorded delivery arrives other wise she assumes it junk mail or bills.

So you make a habit of not paying your bills on time either? I can see that not going down well in court:
"Yeah. *%$! Orange, and Norweb, and the Council Tax; I pay them late because I'm so busy buying car audio kit with all my spare cash that these taxing thieves must wait"

I'm afraid that having a postal address frequented only by someone who is deliberately under orders not to open your mail would be regarded as somewhat irresponsible and doesnt really help your case/credibility of claiming that a scientifically approved measuring device is wrong. It might be best to play down or not mention WHY you didnt respond to this particular notice with any speediness (pardon the pun)

wink.gif

QUOTE
Cjard, you state that two peices of evidence must agree. I take it one is the photo/ inductive loop readings, what is the other.

One is the inductive loop readings, the other is the photo pairing. If monitron cameras only ever take one photo, then it must be at some point in time after a certain event so that a distance can be measured and a distance/time speed can result. THe device would not have gained type approval if its primary readings were not corroborable via a second independent form of test

QUOTE
I was definatley not speeding at the time based on the assumption that my speedo is accurate

If youre confident you were not speeding then you should not be found guilty of it. I'd write immediately, nominating the driver and send it recorded (signed for) delivery

QUOTE
So basically, I need to reply to the NIP and confirm that I was driving and then just wait untill I recieve the court summons, and THEN request supporting information/evidence?

Correct

QUOTE
Many thanks for all the help, didnt think it would arrive this quick smile.gif

Faster than a speeding Saxo wink.gif
southpaw82
QUOTE (cjard @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 14:41) *
I'm afraid that having a postal address frequented only by someone who is deliberately under orders not to open your mail would be regarded as somewhat irresponsible and doesnt really help your case/credibility of claiming that a scientifically approved measuring device is wrong. It might be best to play down or not mention WHY you didnt respond to this particular notice with any speediness (pardon the pun)


Brilliant advice... so if he gets summonsed for s. 172 he either gives no reason for ignoring the first s. 172 notice and hence gets convicted or he lies to the court... yes...
egos_86
And just to add, all my bills are paid by DD and the only mail that goes to my mums are bank statements, junk mail and itemised bills that have already been paid. Therefore up untill now, I didn't really see the need to check my mail regularly. Most companys I deal with have my mobile phone number and can contact me if it is important so I think and hope that it is a reasonable defence.


Also, as the first NIP wasn't recorded delivery, how can the police know that I ever recieved this..apart from me admitting it on a public forum lol. Just a thought
southpaw82
QUOTE (egos_86 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 15:30) *
And just to add, all my bills are paid by DD and the only mail that goes to my mums are bank statements, junk mail and itemised bills that have already been paid. Therefore up untill now, I didn't really see the need to check my mail regularly. Most companys I deal with have my mobile phone number and can contact me if it is important so I think and hope that it is a reasonable defence.


Presuming that you do respond (as soon as possible) and name the driver then if you are prosecuted for s. 172 the defence available is: the person on whom the notice is served shall not be guilty of an offence under this section if he shows either that he gave the information as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of that period or that it has not been reasonably practicable for him to give it.

Whether the court thinks you should have opened your mail and hence it was practicable to give the information sooner is up to them. However, this is academic until we know what you're going to be prosecuted for, if at all.

QUOTE
Also, as the first NIP wasn't recorded delivery, how can the police know that I ever recieved this..apart from me admitting it on a public forum lol. Just a thought


Perjury will see you staying as a guest of Her Majesty.
Pete D
The Monitron Redspeed has the option of not using the old road markings but produces a flash, the timing of which is controlled by the detected speed and places the front wheel of the car on one of three thin lines on the road. This confirms the speed and the vehicle. This is the same as the Truvelo forward facing camera. Pete D
7159keith
Just to clarify a point, you have already committed a S172 offence as you have so far not given the info they seek. If you are summonsed for this IMHO you will be very quickly found guilty as I cannot see the mail at mum's defence standing up in court. So you you need to deal with this first.

Reply asap naming yourself as the driver and you should avoid a S172 summons, then if and when you get a CoFP you can deal with the speeding allegation seperately without the threat of a S172 conviction.

When the CoFP arrives come back for advice on how to go about constructing a defence if you wish to fight the speeding.

cjard
QUOTE (egos_86 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 14:38) *
So ALL use of aftermarket exhausts, induction kits, dump valves (car products that increase the noise) is illegal but the possesion of the fitted device is legal.

Cars are approved as manufactured. If the tester said that ford's latest mondeo was too noisy, they it wouldnt be allowed to be sold here. Once approved, ford can mnaufacture mondeos to that spec knowing their noise production is within limits. Aftermarket addons regularly do increase the noise a vehicle produces and as such, those that make it excessively loud are illegal.. Think race cans on a motorbike for example

QUOTE
Mine with windows closed would be much less than this wink.gif

But if you couldnt hear anything of the world around you including perhaps, emergency sirens, you could be driving without due care or consideration..

That is, however, not what we are discussing. If you get ticketed for being noisy, i'm sure we can discuss it then. For now, let's try not to introduce it as it won't help your case!

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 15:07) *
Brilliant advice... so if he gets summonsed for s. 172 he either gives no reason for ignoring the first s. 172 notice and hence gets convicted or he lies to the court... yes...


Unsure whether youre being sarcastic here (was expecting a smily) but I was advocating not volunteering why the mail wasnt read. I was not advocating lying about it if asked. Hope this clears things up.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 15:34) *
Perjury will see you staying as a guest of Her Majesty.


A Trip To Buckingham Palace For Tea With The Queen! How fabulous! Where do I sign up? biggrin.gif

QUOTE (7159keith @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 16:08) *
Reply asap naming yourself as the driver and you should avoid a S172 summons



I agree, though must caution that it is not guaranteed, that events will proceed thus.
southpaw82
QUOTE (egos_86 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 14:38) *
Define 'excessive' and 'reasonable care'? Is excessive mean louder than when it rolled out of the factory? So ALL use of aftermarket exhausts, induction kits, dump valves (car products that increase the noise) is illegal but the possesion of the fitted device is legal. As far as I am aware, a noise that is deemed to be excessive and a disturbance must exceed a certain decibel reading which from what I remeber is around 100db, about the same as pnematic drill. Mine with windows closed would be much less than this wink.gif


Since you asked...

Excessive = louder than it reasonably needs to be.

Reasonable care = such things that you could reasonably do (or not do) in order to avoid the excessive noise.

Convictions can (and have) stemmed from revving the engine in stationary traffic, loud radios and wheelspins.

Your interpretation of "excessive" is incorrect. After market exhausts can fall under this regulation or another regulation specifically covering modified exhaust systems. A lot of after-market prodcuts can be illegal if a police officer wants to look hard enough.
Watcher
"Define 'excessive' and 'reasonable care'? Is excessive mean louder than when it rolled out of the factory? So ALL use of aftermarket exhausts, induction kits, dump valves (car products that increase the noise) is illegal but the possesion of the fitted device is legal. As far as I am aware, a noise that is deemed to be excessive and a disturbance must exceed a certain decibel reading which from what I remeber is around 100db, about the same as pnematic drill. Mine with windows closed would be much less than this wink.gif "

Oh dear. As a car driver you are already regarded by the authorities as vermin to be exterminated, and unfortunately they've got the biggest gang. Carry on with the attitude and it'll all end in tears! rolleyes.gif
cjard
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 16:16) *
A lot of after-market prodcuts can be illegal if a police officer wants to look hard enough.


Indeed, even a numberplate of nonstandard font or letter spacing can be illegal.. It might even be fair to say taht given the time, a copper could find something illegal about pretty much every car on the road..
The Rookie
QUOTE (egos_86 @ Mon, 18 Aug 2008 - 14:38) *
So ALL use of aftermarket exhausts is illegal


They already were anyway...

Section54 prohibits the modifying of a cars exhaust system such that it produces more noise - so that rules out anything but an OE replacemnet or a copy thereof - Northern constabulary already routine prosecute for this. (Don't shoot the messenger, I drive a Subaru with a modified exhaust, it gives the same power as one that would deafen a deaf man, but being a bit smarter mine looks OE and is only a little noisier!)

Trying reading some legal documents instead of Max Power magazine, all free online at places like 'statutelaw'.....

Simon
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