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Full Version: [nip Wizard] Motorcyclist Nip 41mph In 30. What Happens If I Go To Court?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
moonlightdrive
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2008
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 14 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Hempstead Road, Watford junction Langley Way towards Watford
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - This is the camera nearest to my house! Hempstead road which I travel down usually 2 times a day is full of cameras so I know to always sit around 27-29mph.

On this occasion coming home from work on a friday I see the lights change ahead of me and without thinking about the camera sped up to make the lights. Gatso then flashed me at 41mph.

I want to know what happens if i go to court. I think 3 points is too harsh although I think a fine is possibly appropriate. I am also a new driver so 6 points gets me banned without pleading hardship. I use my motorcycle daily to get to work and do not have a car license.

I would like to know what is likely to happen if I take this matter to court which I would like to do out of principal and to say why I think it is unfair. I understand if everyone who took their ticket to court then the legal system would probably collapse.


How would I proceed in taking this matter to court?

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:22:23 +0100
davepoth
It's almost certain that you will be offered a fixed penalty of 3 points and a £60 fine. If you are happy that you are guilty then it would be best to accept this as going to court will result in you having to pay costs to the CPS, plus a £15 "victim surcharge", with the possiblity that you may get a bigger fine as well.
BaggieBoy
Agreed, nothing you have said indicates that anything but a guity verdict will be returned. It will cost you more then accepting the fixed penalty. I can't see any compelling reason to become a martyr on a simple speeding charge.
Watcher
And if you want to keep your shiny new licence, bear in mind that when you are approaching a green light it may stay green, but the longer it is green the more likely it is to go to amber - so you should slow down and be prepared to stop, not step on it hopeing to beat it! BangHead.gif
Pete D
You have not questioned the speed, you admit speeding up so what mitigation or defence would you present in court. It is just going to increase the costs and could cost you a couple of 1/2 days off work attending court. You could write to the scamaera unit an request any photo's to help identify the rider. No not elaborate or use the word evidence. Perhaps there is something wrong in the photos. Wash of the reg and post them in your thread and others will check them for you. Pete D
nemo
QUOTE (moonlightdrive @ Sun, 17 Aug 2008 - 13:22) *
I am also a new driver so 6 points gets me banned without pleading hardship.

Technical point, but if a driver accumulates 6 or more points within 2 years of first becoming qualified then their licence is revoked. This is not the same as being disqualified.

And exceptional hardship cannot be pleaded to avoid a licence revocation once sufficient points have been imposed to trigger the new drivers' legislation.
facade
If you have your licence revoked, you simply retake your test, and get a new one. There will be a short delay though, and your insurance will go up.

Normally, I wouldn't preach, but writing as a fellow motorcyclist, it is not a good idea to try to "make" the lights. Pedestrians start crossing in anticipation of you stopping, and impatient drivers crossing your path start off on red & amber. Don't forget red light cameras (which act as speed cameras until the red light to catch people speeding up to get across), and even CCTV and policemen, you need to get all of the vehicle over the stop line before the red to avoid prosecution.

Similarly, take extra care pulling away on a green light, as drivers from the side tend to try and "make" the lights, and cross against their red at high speed.
desktop_demon
As a fellow motorcyclist - I too can add that if you think the GATSO flash was not unfounded or do not strongly disagree with the facts then it might be best to accept a FPN. The alternatives are quite "exhilarating" but you have to have deep pockets and a lot of spare time and be very convinced (and convincing) that you have a point. You can only plead mitigation after pleading guilty and leading a "trying to make the lights" excuse will only cause amusement to the magistrates over their tea.

I know it is a real pain being flashed by the one armed bandit when you were just trying to get home in the rain. The end of a perfect day, eh? But in reality this is just what happens in real life on the road - deal with the indignation and ride like a tortoise for some time. But hey ho - worse things could happen. Maybe get a GPS camera information system (or better kit) just to remind you when you are approaching accident problem areas.

And remember, "Please enjoy the thrill of riding on two wheeled vehicles responsibly..." biggrin.gif
moonlightdrive
Many thanks for all of your comments advice.

I don't dispute the charge, I have looked at the photos online and although there's no way to make out its me for sure the fact is it was me and I accept the charge. I do dispute the penalty though.

If I go to court, is there any way I could try and get a different penalty e.g. Pay a higher fine, take a small ban. It's the 3 points I really don't want being a new driver.

Also how much is it likely to be in court fees? I've never been to court before.
The Rookie
You could ask for a short ban ILO points, but I suspect the magistrates will not grant this, you are on the limit of ACPO guidelines for a speed awareness course, but few scammershave the capacity to operate to that. If you go to court the fine will be (to latest guideline) 100% of your take home pay (pay less tax and NI) plus circa £100 'costs' so going to court will cost a LOT more than accepting the FPN, so to be honest, while not good, I think accepting the FPN is your best bet.

Simon
cjard
Indeed, and put the rest of the cash you save (potentially hundreds) by NOT going to court, into a few days at Wheelie School so you can get that numberplate parallel with the looking angle of the camera.. We'll be seeing you on youtube yet laugh.gif


(That's a joke, btw)

Incidentally, if you fancy posting pics of your offence, we can double check the optical measure that they took. If they show a speed of 35 or less, then they don't agree by the 10% required to support a conviction
moonlightdrive
Here are the pictures below. I have not posted the one that shows my number plate (it's clearly readable as mine sad.gif )


cjard
I found the cam on google earth and the major marks seem to be about 25ft apart making each mark 5 ft. Assuming your back tyre is amid two marks in both shots, I count seven full gaps, plus 2 half gaps making the total distance you travelled to be around 40ft in 0.7 sec
Asking google for the following search, causes the google calculator to give:

(40 ft) per (0.7 sec) = 38.961039 mph

Being as generous as possible with the measures and assuming you'd only travelled 37.5ft (i.e. that mark in the distance, assuming your tyre contact patch is right on it rather than halfway to the next one) means your spped would be:

(37.5 ft) per (0.7 sec) = 36.525974 mph

which is just below the 36.9 tolerance (41mph - 10%). If you could realistically convince a court that you had only travelled 37.5 ft in these shots then it could be a defence. If you wanted to run this, you'd be advised to visit the site and measure it exactly using your tyre positions and a tape measure, given the perspective. Remember not to hold up any traffic (in itself an offence) or put yourself in danger.

Pete D
I have measured these images quite carefully and the lowest I could possibly measure and subsequently calculate is 37.74 mph. This is not more than 10% from the detected speed. Sorry. PM Desktop_Demon as he may be able to provide you with more information along this line of defence. Pete D
The Rookie
I agree, and that was 'stretching' it a bit, its more likely about 39.5....

Simon
simonfb10
What bike are you riding? cant quite make it out. is it a bandit 650?
Gaza
QUOTE (moonlightdrive @ Sun, 17 Aug 2008 - 13:22) *
I see the lights change ahead of me and without thinking about the camera sped up to make the lights. Gatso then flashed me at 41mph.


You were a bloody long way from the lights! Even if you bike had warp drive you would have struggled to make them.

QUOTE (moonlightdrive @ Sun, 17 Aug 2008 - 13:22) *
I want to know what happens if i go to court.


You will regret it.

QUOTE (moonlightdrive @ Sun, 17 Aug 2008 - 13:22) *
I think 3 points is too harsh although I think a fine is possibly appropriate.


Unless there are "special reasons" not to endorse the court HAS to award a minimum of 3 points. Whether you think it is fair or not is irrelevant.
Fraggle Rock
QUOTE (facade @ Sun, 17 Aug 2008 - 17:02) *
Don't forget red light cameras (which act as speed cameras until the red light to catch people speeding up to get across)


Those are only the ones that are set up to do that, isn't it? I know the small, grey, red light cameras can be used as both but I was surprised to find out (from the LSCP) that only two in London, of all places, are. One in Havering and one in Ealing.
cjard
QUOTE (Pete D @ Tue, 19 Aug 2008 - 19:22) *
I have measured these images quite carefully and the lowest I could possibly measure and subsequently calculate is 37.74 mph. This is not more than 10% from the detected speed. Sorry. PM Desktop_Demon as he may be able to provide you with more information along this line of defence. Pete D


Indeed, hence why I said (and qualified how) I was being as generous as possible.. Anyone wishing to run a "photos disagree" line would be advised to visit the site, with the 2 pictures in hand, chalk mark the road where the contact patch of the back tyre seemed to be in each shot, and then accurately measure the distance between the marks using a tape measure

QUOTE (Gaza @ Wed, 20 Aug 2008 - 20:11) *
Even if you bike had warp drive you would have struggled to make them.


Well now, there i disagree.. Warp drive in it's slowest form is still faster than light wink.gif
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