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Miridor
Hi Guys and Girls





Great web site, just what I need right know (I haven’t done a NIP Wizard because I haven’t got an NIP just a summons)



The situation for me was that I was travelling northbound on the A46 between the A452 junction and Stoneleigh junction at about 7pm 27th May 2008 after work. As I came up to the Stoneleigh exit (lane 1) I notice a blue Mondeo ST make a very sharp and abrupt cut across from lane 3 to lane 1 to get behind me as I slowed for the exit ramp. I could clearly see to of our finessed inside.

These pair proceeded to follow me for over 3 miles, Away from the A46 (as you can imagine I was driving very conservatively) eventually pulling me over.



Once in the back of there car I was given the usual story about, "do you know why we have stopped you"... which I said no to!, turning to his mate he said, “how fast do you think he was going?” reply “oh at least 110mph, 115mph!” I replied by asking how they where measuring this speed? At this point the copper seemed to loose a little of his cool realising that I was not going to roll over and accept his version of events. They refused to show me any reply of the alleged office on the TV system saying that “I’m a police officer that’s all you need to know and for that I’m going to take you to court” at this point I shut up and let him get on with it!.



Due to not hearing anything for this period, I thought that maybe they had thought better of it but no, Friday 1st though dropped the Summons.



Charges: Excess speed (70mph)





After speaking to few people about this, I think that I have decided to go to court with a plea of innocent and defend myself not using a solicitor.



The question is:



I need help to prepare my case, I need to draft a letter asking for all relevant evidence does anyone have a template?

I have been reading “The Driver’s Survival Handbook” 7th edition 2007 by Martin Thwaite” he is an ex traffic officer and reads a lot of sense. However I am S**ting myself.



I work in the motor industry and technically, if I loose my license I will loose my job.





Thanks in advance



Miridor

Keds
you've provided very little information, but I am intrigued by what line of defence you plan to take?

Road side pulls are difficult to fight, what speed do you think you were doing? Obviously be careful how you answer.

When you plead not guilty, then a trial date will be heard and at some point the evidence the prosecution intend to use should be disclosed. The problem might be, determining when you receive all this information.

If the police have used video or VASCAR, then it is very difficult to fight.
Miridor
Hi Keds

Thanks for the reply, didn't want to put every last detail down and bore people wink.gif

On closed privite roads i have touch those sorts of speed but in these conditions more around 100 on closed privite roads

They seem to realy on the speedo only? but does say that a video was down loaded to the station computer and is avalible for the court!?

I can't see how they speed matched me for the stated mile etc!

After speaking to some friends i am aware that some aspect's of the car in question my not stack up, i will PM you with details if that helps bit of a 50/50.

davidson
It would be useful if you can paste the summons/ statement received from the bill. Obviously blank out your own details. Ps Is this Warwicks plod?
Miridor
I will try and get the use of a scanner to save having to copy it all over (will do) apparently a Warwickshire officer driving a Coventry car?!
Hotel Oscar 87
Hi Miridor

As Keds has said attempting to defend a situation that results in a roadside stop is extremely difficult. That is not an idle statement. However, there are ways in which your liability can be reduced but we would need to know rather more detail about the facts the officers were questioning instead of the amount of detail of the description of the stop itself. Where, for example are they alleging that you were exceeding the limit? The implication is that it was that period you were driving on the A46 dual carriageway but it is not clear. As things stand at the speed indicated you are well into the 7-56 day short term ban territory, if not over it (I think the level tops out at 110mph), or 6 points with a Level B fine (range between 75 and 125% of relevant weekly income - not exceeding statutory maximum)
southpaw82
QUOTE (Miridor @ Fri, 8 Aug 2008 - 18:21) *
I will try and get the use of a scanner to save having to copy it all over (will do) apparently a Warwickshire officer driving a Coventry car?!


A Warwickshire officer attached to the Central Motorway Patrol Group (CMPG) in a West Mids car. CMPG is a co-operation of traffic officers from West Mids, West Mercia, Staffs and Warwickshire. Not entirely surprising and doesn't make any difference.
Miridor
[color="#800080"][/color]
http://s518.photobucket.com/albums/u346/miridor_photo/
Put photo's of all my paper work here hope it works?
Miridor



I drove the same path home tonight, where they came on to the A46 to my exit was approx 1.5 miles. I clocked them at approx 0.8 miles at this stage I was doing 65mph.
If you read through the statements they say I was travelling at over 100mph up the slip!! This is nuts NO WAY "I knew you were there" Ass

After a chat with other people it sounds more and more like I'm F**KED both ways, and they wonder why they get such a bad rap!

[quote]After speaking to some friends I am aware that some aspects of the car in question my not stack up, I will PM you with details if that helps bit of a 50/50. [quote]

Does it make any difference if the car was calibrated or not?
Does it make a difference if the cars maintenance was up to date?
Should I just bend over and have a smack? smile.gif Just frustrated sorry
davepoth
Essentially, if two coppers said you were driving on two wheels while leaning out the window and playing "La Cucarracha" on a nose flute, you would be found guilty unless you can prove otherwise. Two coppers in a car is more than enough to get a speeding conviction, they don't even need the speedo.

If you want to fight, try and get hold of the video.
ict_guy
I drive along that route all the time. There is usually a scamera van parked up on that Stoneleigh bridge - I'm sure that you knew that and, therefore, find it hard to believe that you would exceed 70MPH??

Also, the police statement mentions a slip road island. There isn't one on the Stoneleigh exit!!

Odd that they didn't show you the video. The one that they claim to have uploaded.

If you are convinced that you didn't drive at that speed. Then, since the police statement says that the video can be made available to the court, this will surely discredit the accuracy of statement.
Miridor
QUOTE (ict_guy @ Fri, 8 Aug 2008 - 23:06) *
I drive along that route all the time. There is usually a scamera van parked up on that Stoneleigh bridge - I'm sure that you knew that and, therefore, find it hard to believe that you would exceed 70MPH??



Don't i know it... this is why i'm so p**sed i always approach that bridge carefully.
Just that night i got a little carried away on that privite road that looked simalar to the 46


QUOTE
Also, the police statement mentions a slip road island. There isn't one on the Stoneleigh exit!!


This is the other thing thats got me naffed they know i spotted them early and are trying to make it sound as bad as possible!

If i plead quailty can i go to court ask for mitigation and ask for the evidence to support the speed and exit speed ?
Miridor
QUOTE (ict_guy @ Fri, 8 Aug 2008 - 23:06) *
Odd that they didn't show you the video. The one that they claim to have uploaded.



This is what got me thinking about pleading my case and trying to defend myself, but general opinon says that they could accuse me of doing a Veyron busting 260mph and still win!!!

QUOTE
Essentially, if two coppers said you were driving on two wheels while leaning out the window and playing "La Cucarracha" on a nose flute, you would be found guilty unless you can prove otherwise. Two coppers in a car is more than enough to get a speeding conviction, they don't even need the speedo.


Sh*T..... do i plead innocent or guilty?!
Sorry for the grammer and spelling long day.

reagrds
hughlss
Miridor - my suggestion:
Plead not guilty.
Request disclosure of the evidence against you. This has to be provided to you at least 7 days prior to court appearance.
With luck the evidence is non existent or of poor quality - you should win the case.
If the evidence is clearly not in you favour - you can always change your plea.

You can still plead not guilty - take it all the way, if you're lucky the police witnesses may not attend - they may request an adjournment which you object to, and if you're doubly lucky the prosecution may not offer evidence - I used the argument that the police should have known they wouldn't be available on that particular day and the magistrates agreed.

Hugh
Hotel Oscar 87
Getting the video is going to be the only way in which you can prepare a defence to this. The whole distance from the A452 junction at Kenilworth to the end of the northbound offslip at the Stoneleigh interchange is only 2.25miles. Given that the distance this occured over is acknowledged to be less than this but the officers accounts would seem to suggest that a total distance of about 2 miles was involved then at the speeds quoted the whole incident (as far as the A46 section of it is concerned) would have taken at most just over a minute. Some going.

As it is, it seems the officers have failed to get their story straight as PC Barratt says in his statement "PC SMITH maintained a constant distance over a distance of approximately 1 mile..." whereas PC Smith says "Over approximately a further half a mile we maintained a steady distance..." at the point where they were measuring your speed.

I also find it odd that having accelerated up to a maximum of 118mph (but maintained a speed above 110mph over a distance of a mile) to catch up with you (which is what PC Smith says he did), or at least match the speed they you were doing during the follow check they would only have gained on you at the rate of 5 yards a second (at 110mph). Over the mile he states that he maintained a speed in excess of 110mph in order to be able to gain on you/catch up with you, if you were doing the 100mph alleged, then they would only have gained 160 yards on you during the time it took them to cover the 1 mile (at 110mph) or a maximum of 274 yards if they had maintained the 118mph. These are insignificant distances on a dual carriageway at these speeds.

I further note that neither officers describes the traffic or weather conditions both of which could have a bearing on the final outcome of any case given that a court would have to take into consideration any aggravating factors such as you speed being grossly inappropriate because the traffic was very heavy or if there had been thick fog, for example. Not the performance I'd normally expect from traffic officers.
Miridor
QUOTE (hughlss @ Sat, 9 Aug 2008 - 00:22) *
Miridor - my suggestion:
Plead not guilty.
Request disclosure of the evidence against you. This has to be provided to you at least 7 days prior to court appearance.
With luck the evidence is non existent or of poor quality - you should win the case.
If the evidence is clearly not in you favour - you can always change your plea.

You can still plead not guilty - take it all the way, if you're lucky the police witnesses may not attend - they may request an adjournment which you object to, and if you're doubly lucky the prosecution may not offer evidence - I used the argument that the police should have known they wouldn't be available on that particular day and the magistrates agreed.

Hugh


My Origianl thoughts, thanks Hugh. A little ray of hope.
Also thanks to Hotel oscar some very valid points about speed over distance, the statements don't match with the events. Am i not right in thinking that because TWO copper have drawn the assumption (theres a fancy work i can't remember) that i was doing over 100mph that even without evidence to back up my exact speed they will win?
Pete D
What do you mean by this Miridor.
"Just that night i got a little carried away on that privite road that looked simalar to the 46" You need to explain this. Am I right in thinking the ST was behind you way prior to you exit. Pete D
Miridor
QUOTE (Pete D @ Sat, 9 Aug 2008 - 10:39) *
What do you mean by this Miridor.
"Just that night i got a little carried away on that privite road that looked simalar to the 46" You need to explain this. Am I right in thinking the ST was behind you way prior to you exit. Pete D


Hi Pete

I think the ST came on a junction after me, Kenilworth ramp (agian this was a privite road that just looked like the A46) this is 1.1miles before my get of Stoneleigh. Clear line of site i think at the most they could have seen me would be 0.3 miles but really not shore.
So total journey 2.25 miles i think they joined 1mile in so 1.25 less distance i knew they where there 600yards not that far?

QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Sat, 9 Aug 2008 - 02:02) *
I further note that neither officers describes the traffic or weather conditions both of which could have a bearing on the final outcome of any case given that a court would have to take into consideration any aggravating factors such as you speed being grossly inappropriate because the traffic was very heavy or if there had been thick fog, for example. Not the performance I'd normally expect from traffic officers.


The driver officer Smith state in his statement the the conditions where good with light traffic
Pete D
Again you say private road. Surely all these junctions are public not private. Pete D
Miridor
QUOTE (Pete D @ Sat, 9 Aug 2008 - 15:44) *
Again you say private road. Surely all these junctions are public not private. Pete D


If these where public roads Pete D i might incriminate myself for some thing i didn't do, like a signed confession!?

I have spoken to someone today who recommended that i lodge a complaint about the two officers with IPCA, does anyone agree?
Would this not just poke a sleep cat?

The other thing i have been trying to find is a template letter to send off asking for all relevant evidence against me if i plead not guilty, can anyone point me in the right direction?

How long do i have to make a plea?

Cheers Guys and Girls
Keds
QUOTE (Miridor @ Sun, 10 Aug 2008 - 18:17) *
I have spoken to someone today who recommended that i lodge a complaint about the two officers with IPCA, does anyone agree?
Would this not just poke a sleep cat?


Lodge a complaint against them why? I'm tying to figure out from what you have said, where the complaint is. The statements might not exactly be 100% the same, I'd be more concerned if they were 100% the same.

Are you thinking of lodging a complaint because of their statements?

I see 2 things happening if you do lodge a complaint
1 - the police, will investigate and thank you for bringing to their attention some possible wrong doing.
2 - the police will come out with all guns blazing, to discredit your complaint and pull out all the steps to find you guilty.






Miridor
QUOTE
Lodge a complaint against them why? I'm tying to figure out from what you have said, where the complaint is. The statements might not exactly be 100% the same, I'd be more concerned if they were 100% the same.

Are you thinking of lodging a complaint because of their statements?


No the complaint would have been about there conduct and the stop in general?!

QUOTE
I see 2 things happening if you do lodge a complaint
1 - the police, will investigate and thank you for bringing to their attention some possible wrong doing.
2 - the police will come out with all guns blazing, to discredit your complaint and pull out all the steps to find you guilty.


My thoughts on the nose..

What do you think my chance's are asking for evidence and trying to show holes in the statements?

If i can prove that the car is not calibrated does this mean that using the speedo to pace my speed would be dismissed?
Miridor
Going to go for it, a lot to loose either way.

Sending the summons back with a not guilty plea, and enclosing a letter asking for full disclosure of the evidence against me. Will send this to the CPS and to West Mids police force recorded.

Does anyone have any last advice?

Will keep you all posted with developments.
Naughty1
The problem is that there were two officers and you were on your own. To put it in perspective, I know of a case where there were two medical professionals in a car which was stopped for speeding in the middle of the night. They were doing 80 mph at the time on a very curvy bit of unlit motorway and the cop didn't have continuous visual contact. The lone officer decided (and grossly exaggerated) what speed they were doing and when it came to court, guess who the magistrate believed? The Police NEVER lie you know!
7159keith
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Sat, 9 Aug 2008 - 02:02) *
I further note that neither officers describes the traffic or weather conditions both of which could have a bearing on the final outcome of any case given that a court would have to take into consideration any aggravating factors such as you speed being grossly inappropriate because the traffic was very heavy or if there had been thick fog, for example. Not the performance I'd normally expect from traffic officers.


The traffic and weather conditions are both mentioned in page one of the OPs docs.
Miridor
QUOTE (Naughty1 @ Tue, 12 Aug 2008 - 22:57) *
The problem is that there were two officers and you were on your own. To put it in perspective, I know of a case where there were two medical professionals in a car which was stopped for speeding in the middle of the night. They were doing 80 mph at the time on a very curvy bit of unlit motorway and the cop didn't have continuous visual contact. The lone officer decided (and grossly exaggerated) what speed they were doing and when it came to court, guess who the magistrate believed? The Police NEVER lie you know!


I know sad.gif

But plead guilty, they go for the lower of the speeds indicated by the officers (110mph) and i get a ban!

Plead not guilty, go to court and try and show discrepancies in the evidence and statements and i get a ban (Because as say our wounderfull police never lie)

Plead not guilty go to court and due to a technicality or simmalar it gets dismissed (really long shot i know not fooling myself here)

Whats the better of all the evils?!
I think i have to try and protect my job and sanity!
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