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christopherwk
Got a ticket this morning for stopping at a bus stop/stand near the bottom of Charing Cross Road - I was actually unloading, and the bay just had double yellow lines, with dotted white line around it.

There was no bus stop signs on the road, and the sign on the lamppost was obscured by hanging flowers and I couldn't see the sign as I approached the bay.

I hope this ticket isn't enforceable.

I will post photos when I get home tonight.

Many thanks.
christopherwk
http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0640.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0641.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0642.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0643.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0644.JPG

I couldn't get a frontal view of the sign, otherwise I'll be standing amongst the traffic on the other side of the road!

I am not sure of the significance of the dashed white line around the bay.

I just approached it looking for a safe place to unload out the way, I'd have thought if it was for buses it would have at least some sort of writing on the road? wacko.gif



Teufel
what does the sign say ?
christopherwk
I can't remember, I think it was:

No stopping except buses to set down and pick up.

I'll probably be in the area tomorrow, so I'll try and get another picture of the sign (and the bay where I parked, without my van in the way).
Neil B
Find it quite funny they are probably Council flowers!

DfT Guidance on Civil Parking enforcement is quite relevant - although only guidance. P143 note E8 on the possible duties of a CEO to check and report on the condition of signs.

Elsewhere it also refers to notes a CEO should make, inclding nearby signage, so I wonder what he/she put in the notebook?

Will try and post a link when I can find it.

Off to check bus stop markings! That can't be right, surely!

-
Neil B
I'm sure I posted this link last night ??

>>>> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanu...lchapter5ro4183 Page 106

just found something somewhere else tho - er, where was it now? TSRGD 2002 introduced a bus 'parking place' as a variant of 1028 series. Might explain the white lines?

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christopherwk
Oooh dear, looks like I'm in the wrong here... just looked at page 107 - white lines are diagram 1010.

Should I pay up?

Or is the ticket still not enforceable because of the hanging flowers.

Took frontal view of the sign here:

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0645.JPG

"No stopping at any time. Except buses to set down and pick up" - not the exact words but it's something like that.
southpaw82
Without seeing the sign it's very difficult to tell you whether they've got it right - impossible in fact!
Neil B
QUOTE (christopherwk @ Fri, 4 Jul 2008 - 21:34) *
Oooh dear, looks like I'm in the wrong here... just looked at page 107 - white lines are diagram 1010.

Should I pay up?

Or is the ticket still not enforceable because of the hanging flowers.

Took frontal view of the sign here:

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0645.JPG

"No stopping at any time. Except buses to set down and pick up" - not the exact words but it's something like that.


I'm not so sure. The way I read it the 1010 dashed white lines delineate areas where othere vehicles can pull in. For buses only it has to be yellow lines unless it is the, so far, mysterious new 'bus parking place'.

The bay you show also doesn't have the thick yellow kerbside line that denotes a bus stop clearway. As far as I understand, and I'm fairly new to this myself, the road markings and 974/975 signage have to both be present. If one is missing it invalidates the other - i.e. how would you find that sign in the dark?

There is no thick yellow line and no 'no loading' kerb clips as far as I can see.

Wait to see what others say.

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southpaw82
Neil, it appears they're relying on simple double yellow lines with a "no stopping" sign (except busses) to convey this prohibition. The TRO would probably be most illuminating.

As you may know, one of the meanings of DYL is "Stopping of vehicles in a lay-by prohibited except in emergency". This is a lay-by (probably) hence the 1010 dashed white lines. The plate has been added to communicate the exception for busses (I assume, not having seen the sign).
Neil B
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 4 Jul 2008 - 22:27) *
As you may know, one of the meanings of DYL is "Stopping of vehicles in a lay-by prohibited except in emergency".


No I didn't know there was any difference for lay-bys. Your comments have educated me yet again. Might be very relevant. As you say, what the sign actually says and the traffic order will be helpful.

thanks.

-








Neil B
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 4 Jul 2008 - 23:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 4 Jul 2008 - 22:27) *
As you may know, one of the meanings of DYL is "Stopping of vehicles in a lay-by prohibited except in emergency".


No I didn't know there was any difference for lay-bys. Your comments have educated me yet again. Might be very relevant. As you say, what the sign actually says and the traffic order will be helpful.

thanks.

-



Conclusion then, from everything I've managed to look at so far is that a) this is not a bus stop and OP did say no bus stop sign seen b) neither can it be a 'bus stand' but c) It could be a 'bus parking place'

I suppose, given the tourist nature of the area that would make sense - assuming coaches could use it.

All boils down to the traffic order and exact sign - as we've said.

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southpaw82
Alternatively it is a lay-by with a no stopping order in force with an exception for busses. It can't be a bus parking place if the exception is for passenger alighting only.
Neil B
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 5 Jul 2008 - 16:18) *
Alternatively it is a lay-by with a no stopping order in force with an exception for busses.


As i said before, I appreciate the education but couldn't find that 'yellow lines in a lay-by' issue anywhere in regs. Is it an old established one that's never been revoked?

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southpaw82


Dia 1018.1, meaning (b) is what I'm working from. Obviously, it has to be in the TRO to be effective.
Alexis
The onus is on the council to make the restriction clear. As the sign is completely hidden, and as a result you unloaded where it seemed there were no restrictions, I can see no reason for the adjudicator not to cancel the ticket.


christopherwk
Thanks Alexis.

Well, the sign is not 100% completely hidden, if you look at it, directly in front of it

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0645.JPG,

but as you approach the "layby" from inside a vehicle, then you won't be able to see the sign.

i.e. (at a similar angle)

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0643.JPG.

When you're driving along in central London looking for a quick and safe place to unload, I wouldn't think it's feasible to start looking at every lamppost at different angles to look for signs (well one, in this case) behind flowers, whenever and wherever you stop!

Hopefully the adjudicator will take this into account.

I would've expect to at least see some sort of wording on the road... http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....nd/Image001.jpg (from this thread: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry267451)
southpaw82
I think it's atrociously signed. It should be blindingly obvious to the council that the hanging baskets obscure the sign. Quite how they think that disharges their obligation to clearly sign the restriction is beyond me.
christopherwk
I was back in the area today, and took a few more pictures, including a close up of the sign.

Unfortunately, there was a huge foreign truck in the bay (with a ticket on the windscreen, unsurprisingly!), so I couldn't get a picture of the bay without a vehicle on it.

But as you can see from the pictures, it is possible to see the sign when you're close to the lamppost and underneath, but as you approach and park the sign is set back from the flowers and you're unable to see it (Image 784 and 785) - and I parked near the back of the bay too.

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0781.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0782.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0783.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0784.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0785.JPG
Neil B
As far as I can see, i can't find that sign anywhere in TSRGD - or any permitted variants.

That said, I hope someone can confirm (600 series from around 620 to 650+).

In any case it is not properly maintained re visibility as others have said.





christopherwk
Just added a couple more pics of the sign, and the "bay" where I parked to unload.

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0835.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0836.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0837.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0838.JPG

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0839.JPG

Oh, and I've just been reading http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=31337 and it looks like I'm not the only one who's been affected by Westminster's pretty flowers!
Nimbus
A look at the PCN may help. What did it say re the alleged contravention? If it was for a code 47 “Parked on a restricted bus stop/stand”, then I’d say that this doesn’t apply as there is no clear indication that the white lines placed (Which IMHO are illegal and confusingly give the appearance of a 1028 parking bay?) on a double yellow line no waiting/loading restriction is a bus stop. The no loading restriction is reinforced by the double yellow kerb blips shown in your pics. This presumably (Excepting emergency vehicles) applies to all classes of vehicle, buses unloading passengers included?

The nicely decorated and expertly camouflaged sign that says "No stopping at any time except bus set down and pick up" Does not on its own create a bus stop, the TSRGD has specific signs and lines which do this. This sign appears to be a variant of 974. There is no provision for the words "except bus set down and pick up”. It should only say “except buses”. The lines that should accompany signs 970, 973.2, 973.3, 974 and 975 are shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025. 3 and 1025.4. In this case the road layout has the appearance of being located in part of a lay-by. The lines to diagram 1025.3 should have been used!
christopherwk
http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0837.JPG shows that there were no double yellow blips on the kerbstones, which is why I assumed it's ok to unload there (I have proof of delivery signature anyway).
johnjames
There is only one set of lines on the kerb at the end of the DY's that I can see and also the DY's dont exactlly look compliant IMO as they are all wobbly in places and look like they fade even more as they go around the corner how do they end? There also looks as if there is a break in the line anyway. If there is eevn an inch it cannot be enforced and that is from the DFT "they know they cannot enforce faded or broken lines even if there is only a small break." On telephone record.

The fact that the flowers cover the signs make the order invalid signs are to be visible at all times and reasonable care and duty should be taken so as not to confuse drivers as well. This looks like a bay but it is not is it when you DO see the sign!
Nimbus
QUOTE (christopherwk @ Thu, 3 Jul 2008 - 20:38) *
[url="http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/PCN%20Charing%20Cross%20Road/IMGP0640.JPG"]http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....ad/IMGP0640.JPG


Is that your van show in the above link? The PCN is pretty vague in it's description of Location, not sure what the letters (G1) refer to? Charing Cross Rd is a fairly long. Did the TA take photos of your vehicle? If so, I'd certainly ask the Council for copies along with the TA's notes and Traffic Regulation Order.


QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 4 Jul 2008 - 15:22) *
just found something somewhere else tho - er, where was it now? TSRGD 2002 introduced a bus 'parking place' as a variant of 1028 series. Might explain the white lines?


Neil is correct. (My copy of the TSRGD seems to be out of date, either that or I'm going blind?) This is getting complicated! (5.30am isn't helping either sleep.gif )

Link here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bj.gif is a 1028.3 parking bay, the words can be varied to say "Buses". The bay does not provide for a sign to diagram 974 "No stopping except buses", that sign (974) on its own does not provide for a DYL.

It isn't a bus stop; it's merely a purported parking space for buses. The bay shown in your pics is undesignated; it does not show the word "Buses". Your PCN says, code 47 “Stopped on a restricted bus stop/stand” (Small point. It should say “Parked on a restricted bus stop/stand”). Perhaps the PCN should say code 23 "Parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle"? Anyway, as you were not parked on a bus stop/stand the contravention didn't occur. I'd argue that the PCN, TRO, lines and sign are invalid, non-compliant! Be interesting to hear what the Council has to say?
DW190
No Stopping Except Busses relates to Bus Stop Clearways.

The old bus stop cage ceased to be recognised from the 1 January 2007

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/nlpbts...y1stjanuary2007

A Bus Stop Clearway has a heavy yellow line close to the kerb (the width of two to three ordinary yellows) and must be accompanied by a No Stopping sign which can be varied with time restrictions to reflect times of the day when services are running. No time restriction would indicate 24/7.

Here is a Bus Stop Clearway albeit poorly marked.

Nimbus
Thanks DW190.

The plot thickens! Road markings to 1025 and 1025.2 no longer used!

On borough roads a clearway marking must be provided in accordance with TSRGD diagrams 974 ( http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113aj.gif) and 1025.1. ( http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bd.gif ). Traffic Regulation Orders are no longer required for these bus stop clearways. All bus stops should have a marked cage as per TSRGD 2002 diagram 1025.1 with stopping restrictions ideally operating 24 hours a day.

Red coloured surfacing: Highlighting the bus stop cage to indicate to other road users that it is an area for use by buses is recommended. This can be achieved by providing a red coloured surface treatment within the cage.


christopherwk
Hi all,

Thanks for replies. It does look like this PCN is unenforceable. I had no idea that there are so many reasons why this is so! The lines, markings, signs, what's on the PCN etc....! It's no wonder I saw an Evening Standard headline recently: "Westminster loses 94% of parking appeals".

Anyway, yes it was my van in Image 640, I parked near the end of the bay, and as I said before, I assumed this was a perfectly legitimate place to unload (it was the National Gallery, behind Trafalgar Square - so this is at the bottom of Charing Cross Road).

It's almost a month sicne I received the PCN, so I "should" receive the NtO fairly soon, in the next week or so.

Regards

christopherwk
QUOTE (Nimbus @ Wed, 23 Jul 2008 - 02:51) *
Is that your van show in the above link? The PCN is pretty vague in it's description of Location, not sure what the letters (G1) refer to?



Hmm, looking at the PCN of my other topic, (G1) also appears here at the Strand! wacko.gif

http://cid-b55cfccdc0a22611.skydrive.live....nd/IMGP0911.JPG
christopherwk
OK, I have now received the NtO.

Which box should I tick for grounds for Representation?

- The alleged contravention did not occur - please explain why you think no contravention took place

or

- The Traffic Order which is alleged to have been contravened was invalid - if you believe the parking restriction in question was invalid or illegal

(The others are not really relevant).

Also when giving evidence details, should I just explain the sign was hidden by flowers and I assume it was a legal place to unload - submittting photos of the bay, the flower-covered sign and the proof of delivery that I was unloading. Or, should I go to into more detail, quoting from the TRSGD?



Thanks.

bama
post pics of the NTO - of ALL of it. scrubbed of your personal details.

sometimes NTOs are invalid....
southpaw82
Can't read it.
bama
if you click on thethumb nail pictures (big for thumb nails but that is what they are) then your browser should downlad the full size pics. they are then readable despite the weird angle (big pictures !)
southpaw82
If someone wants me to read their paperwork then it's common courtesy to make them easily readable.
christopherwk
I've received a Notice of Rejection (with a form from PATAS, so I can appeal) from Westminster, and looking at it, I have no idea what they're on about!

They say "A restricted bus stop is recognisable by a "yellow bay painted on the road surface" ?!

"The legend 'BUS STOP' in large letters is painted within the bay" ?!

Also, apparently, they've rejected my Representation because I can see , the vehicle was parked in a Bus Sop!

As you can see from the photos no yellow markings on where I parked (unloaded) whatsoever - except for the double yellows which enables me to unload (I still have delivery note and signature as proof).

Even the CEO who took the photo of the flower-obscured sign had to stand underneath it to try and get a clear shot of the sign!

I'm going to appeal (obviously), what are the chances of me winning?








fighturway
No one has made any comments about the NtO, I have similar NtO but unable to post, so would also be helpful to me....

Only things I can think of are:

- "The owner of the vehicle is legally responsible for acting upon this notice" as Neil mentioned before, no you are not: you are financially liable for payment of any resulting penalty. Anyone may act upon the notice and of course you may pass it to the driver to find out the circumstances

- Fetters your right to appeal by directing you to tick one box: the problem with this is that it states that you may also give other reasons why you beleive the PCN is invalid...so this argument might go out the window - needs expert advice

Anything else on this cleaned up NtO from Westminster?
fighturway
No one picked up on the above comments...

I've just noticed that it has changed to the Traffic Management Act 2004 - is that why the things I mentioned are not grounds for appeal?
Neil B
QUOTE (fighturway @ Mon, 29 Sep 2008 - 20:33) *
No one has made any comments about the NtO, I have similar NtO but unable to post, so would also be helpful to me....

Only things I can think of are:

- "The owner of the vehicle is legally responsible for acting upon this notice" as Neil mentioned before, no you are not: you are financially liable for payment of any resulting penalty. Anyone may act upon the notice and of course you may pass it to the driver to find out the circumstances

- Fetters your right to appeal by directing you to tick one box: the problem with this is that it states that you may also give other reasons why you beleive the PCN is invalid...so this argument might go out the window - needs expert advice

Anything else on this cleaned up NtO from Westminster?


On the comment above "legally responsible" - probably technically correct - although anyone can still act on it with authorisation. I have more of an issue when some say "Do not pass to the driver" - then how do you ind out circumstances.

On tick one box - still fettered because the "other issues" they are referring to are just that 'other issues' not covered by the boxes other than the 'other' box (i.e. mitigating circumstances). They clearly indicate that you may only use one of the legal grounds - not true.

I'm basing all of this on what f'way has said because I haven't actually seen this one and with those pics, won't be trying to.
-
christopherwk
Better late than never I suppose, it's been over a year since starting this post!
I'd love to know what the "technical issue" was?!


Teufel
typical
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