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Dom W
Sorry all, I am not sure if this is the right forum for this query...

On Friday I came home from work to find my car clamped and a notice from the DVLA to say that the car was not taxed and would be reomved and I would have to pay a fine etc. This was more than a bit confusing since the tax disc on the car says that it is still taxed through to the end of July. So, I ring the number on the notice at about 5:55pm to get the clamp removed and I am told that the previous owner (I bought the car in March) must have cashed the tax in and since it was after 6pm (it definitely wasn't) there is nothing they could do as they were closing (my phone bill shows that I rang and the call finished before 6pm, so they could have unclamped the car and should have, that night, avoiding the subsequent problems). So, I head out for the evening fuming and get up on Saturday to call them... Hear a car alarm going off outside to find that there is a lorry with one of those car lifting cranes on it, taking my car away!!!

Now, aside from the fact that I was completely unaware that I had been driving around without tax (they never sent me a letter to say the car wasn't taxed, even when they sent me the V5 and I was displaying a tax disc) what worried me was how they were lifting the car...

First, I go out to find that they have picked it up and it has started moving towards a lamp post so they have put it down again, but on a curb...



Then the chap operating the crane gets the other guy to push the car away from the lamp post...



But, most worryingly of all, the way they had the cages on the wheels attached at the back was a serious worry - they were picking the car up by gripping the tyres as the wheels are so wide! Look at the tyre on the left wheel in particular, the metal is digging in, deforming the tyre and that bit of rubber is taking the whole load. Also, since the car is so wide, the wheels were being pulled out at the bottom and you could see the camber... Quite upsetting really!





To cut a long story short... I bought the car from an independant dealer on March the 7th... What I didn't notice at the time of picking up the car is that the tax disc was missing. I rang the dealer the next day and said that the tax disc was missing but when I viewed the car and agreed to buy it, there was the better part of 6 months tax... Anyway, to cut a long story short I went to the DVLA office in Wimbledon on Monday 10th of March and they said that the car was still taxed and issued me with a replacement tax disc (I have the receipt from that trip).

So, in effect, they have given the previous owner the tax back on the car, AFTER ownership has passed to me. I was completely unaware of this as the DVLA never sent me a letter to say that my car was untaxed, the first i knew of it was when the clamp appeared. So, I guess I have been driving round untaxed and it has therefore voided my insurance - That has freaked me out a bit.

I understand that the dealer has been unscrupulous and should answer some questions, but should the DVLA have given them the tax back, after the car has passed into my ownership? I was the new owner when I went to the DVLA and they issued me with the V5 and they confirmed the car was taxed at the same time, so surely they have given the tax back to someone who does not own the car, after the event?

And, what worries me most, is how they have picked the car up at the back! The car is a 911 with the engine in the back, so it is very heavy over those rear wheels - And you can see the metal digging into the tyres - Since the car isn't being picked up as intended, should they have moved it like that? What if the car had slipped off and dropped!

Any thoughts anyone has before I go to the DVLA tomorrow afternoon to sort this tax issue would be very much appreciated!

Many thanks once again,

Dom
borsicorn
You seem to have been using / keeping an untaxed vehicle on a public road.

I've read the reasons for your problem.

Unfortunately, it is YOUR PROBLEM.

I suggest you get the vehicle independently assessed for damage and instruct a good solicitor to recover your outlay from the selling garage.

Did your invoice specifically say that the vehicle was bought taxed? If not, down to you, sorry.

Always a good idea to check a vehicle over before you accept delivery. An absent tax disc isn't hard to spot and saves hassle later.
clark_kent
QUOTE (borsicorn @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 17:35) *
You seem to have been using / keeping an untaxed vehicle on a public road.

I've read the reasons for your problem.

Unfortunately, it is YOUR PROBLEM.

I suggest you get the vehicle independently assessed for damage and instruct a good solicitor to recover your outlay from the selling garage.

Did your invoice specifically say that the vehicle was bought taxed? If not, down to you, sorry.

Always a good idea to check a vehicle over before you accept delivery. An absent tax disc isn't hard to spot and saves hassle later.


Maybe you should have read the OPs post properly before replying??
He did spot the missing tax disc when he bought the car and was issued with a duplicate valid until July 2008 by the DVLA local office in Wimbledon. I fail to see how it can now be his fault the car was towed away since he was displaying a current VEL and had no reason to beleive it had been cancelled.
Dom W
Exactly, thank you Clark...

Because I did notice that the tax disc was missing, I checked with the DVLA office, who checked their computer and then took payment from me for a replacement tax disc... i.e. I bought the car, took it off the road when I noticed the missing tax disc, went to the DVLA (taking time off work) and was issued with a new disc, after they checked whether the car was taxed, and so I was reassured that I was NOT keeping a vehicle on the road untaxed... I guess I have also been technically uninsured because I have had it untaxed and if I knew that I would not have driven it and certainly wouldn't pay £1k per annum in insurance if I knew I was technically uninsured!!

The car was displaying a current tax disc, given to me by the DVLA, after I had them check whether the car was taxed or not... I fail to see what more I could have done?!
andy_foster
QUOTE (Dom W @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 18:17) *
I guess I have also been technically uninsured because I have had it untaxed


Whilst not particularly relevant to the immediate issue, your guess is incorrect.
Dom W
Thanks Andy, that actually brings me some comfort!
Neil B
QUOTE (Dom W @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 18:17) *
I fail to see what more I could have done?!


Well obviously you should have written to them every couple of days, a further six times maybe and fortnightly thereafter to make sure! biggrin.gif

As it came up in another recent thread I am a bit worried about the lack of avenues available to challenge the DVLA. I've personally found them to be one of the more helpful agencies over the phone but when they balls things up like this they seem very intransigent.

So what's the plan peeps? Can only think of starting proceedings against DVLA but I'm not at all clued up on those avenues. Certainly think there is a big compensation issue here - not just for the loss of the vehicle (for whatever period) and the possible damage but also the fact that they put you at risk on the insurance issue.

sorry I'm not much help - just really wanted to say I think it's appalling.

-
viper
I would suggest maybe contacting your local paper or maybe Daily Mail they sometimes cover these kinds of story seems like total overkill to me
borsicorn
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 18:00) *
QUOTE (borsicorn @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 17:35) *
You seem to have been using / keeping an untaxed vehicle on a public road.

I've read the reasons for your problem.

Unfortunately, it is YOUR PROBLEM.

I suggest you get the vehicle independently assessed for damage and instruct a good solicitor to recover your outlay from the selling garage.

Did your invoice specifically say that the vehicle was bought taxed? If not, down to you, sorry.

Always a good idea to check a vehicle over before you accept delivery. An absent tax disc isn't hard to spot and saves hassle later.


Maybe you should have read the OPs post properly before replying??
He did spot the missing tax disc when he bought the car and was issued with a duplicate valid until July 2008 by the DVLA local office in Wimbledon. I fail to see how it can now be his fault the car was towed away since he was displaying a current VEL and had no reason to beleive it had been cancelled.


Then Sir, you are a fool.

With respect, the onus is very clearly on the road user to ensure that he has a valid tax disc before venturing a wheel upon the road.

The only way to absolutely ensure this is to buy a new tax disc.

On verifying that a valid tax disc does exist, the OP would apply for a refund.

I sincerely hope that you do not advise many people in this part of the Forum.
borsicorn
QUOTE (Dom W @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 18:17) *
Exactly, thank you Clark...

Because I did notice that the tax disc was missing, I checked with the DVLA office, who checked their computer and then took payment from me for a replacement tax disc... i.e. I bought the car, took it off the road when I noticed the missing tax disc, went to the DVLA (taking time off work) and was issued with a new disc, after they checked whether the car was taxed, and so I was reassured that I was NOT keeping a vehicle on the road untaxed... I guess I have also been technically uninsured because I have had it untaxed and if I knew that I would not have driven it and certainly wouldn't pay £1k per annum in insurance if I knew I was technically uninsured!!

The car was displaying a current tax disc, given to me by the DVLA, after I had them check whether the car was taxed or not... I fail to see what more I could have done?!


A replacement disc is issued if the original was lost or stolen.

Yours wasn't.
viper
Yes I thought that myself. I would imagine you have to fill out a form re the disc to state it’s lost/stolen. If the car dealer has it then it’s clearly not lost/stolen. Basically the ANPR is smart and picks up on this. Saw a guy near me done like this with wheel clamp think it was similar he had a valid disc on the car but DVLA had paid out a refund.

Why did they lift car, usually if you pay up, you just have to pay cost of new tax disc plus clamp. You would have to pay for a new tax disc anyway.

You would need to check out paperwork with this one. When did you go into DVLA office – what form did you fill out, what declaration did you sign to get the replacement disc?

What is the gap between getting the replacement disc and then getting clamped. You claim no letter sent to you - normally they would write in these circumstances that is unusual. Perhaps consider a data protection request
clark_kent
QUOTE (borsicorn @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 19:20) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 18:00) *
QUOTE (borsicorn @ Sun, 29 Jun 2008 - 17:35) *
You seem to have been using / keeping an untaxed vehicle on a public road.

I've read the reasons for your problem.

Unfortunately, it is YOUR PROBLEM.

I suggest you get the vehicle independently assessed for damage and instruct a good solicitor to recover your outlay from the selling garage.

Did your invoice specifically say that the vehicle was bought taxed? If not, down to you, sorry.

Always a good idea to check a vehicle over before you accept delivery. An absent tax disc isn't hard to spot and saves hassle later.


Maybe you should have read the OPs post properly before replying??
He did spot the missing tax disc when he bought the car and was issued with a duplicate valid until July 2008 by the DVLA local office in Wimbledon. I fail to see how it can now be his fault the car was towed away since he was displaying a current VEL and had no reason to beleive it had been cancelled.


Then Sir, you are a fool.

With respect, the onus is very clearly on the road user to ensure that he has a valid tax disc before venturing a wheel upon the road.

The only way to absolutely ensure this is to buy a new tax disc.

On verifying that a valid tax disc does exist, the OP would apply for a refund.

I sincerely hope that you do not advise many people in this part of the Forum.


The only fool here is you!! The OP went to buy a new disc from the DVLA and was told the vehicle was ALREADY taxed and gave him a replacement disc. The only other option would to have been to ask for a refund on the current disc and then immediatly buy a new one which is sheer stupidity.
Dom W
Thanks for the info... As Clark says, I did go to the DVLA to purchase a new tax disc and was told that the computer already showed that the car was taxed, so they said I would just need a replacement. I was not aware that the tax disc had been taken to be cashed in (it obviously had not been at this point, or the computer was not updated yet, but I assume that happens as soon as it is paid out) as i had already contacted the dealer, told them the tax disc was missing and they said that they 'could not find it in the file' and that I should go to the DVLA, which I did. They obviously 'found' the disc sometime later, without me knowing, and applied for a refund.

However, this must have been sometime after I bought the car, hence it did not show up on the computer when I went to the DVLA. Apart from getting the new V5 through the post, I have had absolutely no contact from anyone to say that the car was untaxed, and since I was displaying, what I believed to be a current tax disc, I was not expecting to receive anything either!

This car is my pride and joy and is kept on the road, outside my house, so I would certainly not keep it on the road in the knowledge that it is untaxed as I would expect it to be taken away (there are a lot of traffic wardens here) and I don't fancy paying £300 in total, when I could buy a tax disc for less...

I do not remember exactly what forms I signed, but I had the correct documentation with me and they would not sell me a tax disc as they said I only needed a replacement! i.e. when I took posession of the car, the car was taxed, I received the correct tax disc and have kept that on the car... The onus is on the owner to make sure it's taxed, hence I went to the DVLA, checked it was taxed and was told it was and issued the tax disc. How then did they refund the old tax disc when they knew they had issued a new one??

The car was clamped and taken away 3 months after purchase... Yet no communication from the DVLA has come through to let me know how long after purchase it was that the tax disc was cashed in, and there has been no letter/ reminder to get a new one... I had already been informed on another forum about the data protection act and requesting info, so I will definitely ask for that information - Many thanks for that!

The reason they took the car away was that I rang the number at 5:55pm and was told it was gone 6pm so if I wanted to get anything done, it would have to be the next morning... So, when I go to the living room to ring in the morning, I hear the car alarm going off and that's when they took it away... Then, apparently the place closed at 12pm on Saturday and I would not get it back that day and then it is closed again all day today, so the only time I can get it is tomorrow now! my phone bill shows that my conversation with them started and ended before 6pm on the Friday as well. Plus, I really want to discuss this with the DVLA office on Monday and get my tax disc from them. So, in theory, had they come out on the Friday (as they should have), there would be no problem now, or at least, not as big and as expensive a problem!

Hope that makes sense, I don't feel I have worded it very well!
southpaw82
If you bought the car with tax then the dealer had no right to cash in the tax disc. In doing so he has been negligent and as a result you have suffered loss and damage (however much it costs to get your car back). I'd sue the dealer personally.

Could be worth asking the DVLA who cashed in the disc - if it's the dealer he's in trouble. DVLA might be interested in the fraud too.
ftc001
Mail on Sunday would be interested in this, they love the DVLA wink.gif

Again though, this could have been sorted out without the tow, the problem is that the DVLA contract with NCP Ltd which NCP Services Ltd took over in March, (novated to NCP Services in June)(I have a copy for anyone who wants a gander), has the following targets:

4 Performance Requirements

4.1 Numbers of Vehicles

4.1.1 The DVLA Wheelclamping scheme will require the contractor to take enforcement action, comprising clamping/removal and removal-only operations, in respect of 2,000 vehicles per week, for each whole week of the calendar year (excepting the Christmas and Bank Holiday periods).

4.1.2 During the lifetime of the contract, the requirement may be to double the scale of operations. The contractor must provide an expansion plan to facilitate this requirement.

4.1.3 Scoring against target

With the variety of deployments required of the contractor, a means of fairly assessing achievement against a weekly target is necessary. In addition to the 2000 vehicle target, the contractor will be required to achieve a target of 3000 units, with each unlicensed vehicle actioned being allocated a score in accordance with the following weighting allowances:


Activity
(Relating to both routine and targeted operations unless otherwise stated)
Weighted
Score (units achieved against target)
Clamp/declamp (offender complies with requirements) 1
Clamp/and subsequent removal 1
‘Instant’ vehicle removal 1.5
‘Instant’ vehicle removal (By direction) 2


With targets like this, why would a contractor give a royal hoot to whether an injustice has occured?
patdavies
Just to add my two pennyworth here.

The OP was given a replacement VED disk by DVLA after he had purchased the car We are assuming that the dealer took the 'old' VED disk to cash it in.

However, when DVLA (via the LVLO) issued the new disk, their system showed the vehicle has having current VED,

The issuing of the new disk, should void the old disk and therefore it should be impossible to cash in that disk - they are serial numbered.

The DVLA have screwed up royally here and you will need to get a good solicitor to get them to civil court for damages.
Glacier2
QUOTE
The DVLA have screwed up royally here and you will need to get a good solicitor to get them to civil court for damages.


Pat, I agree 100% the DVLA have screwed up big time. The OP should sue them for damages.

Another thought, was the old VED cashed in before or after the issue of the V5 to the OP?
Teufel
dvla have scerwed up (as ever) - their is no clear avenue of redress against this body
(cf parking and patas)

get your MP involved
zamzara
Agreed that the DVLA are at fault. The dealer would not have known that a replacement disc was issued; nor could the OP control what the dealer did. The DVLA were negligent in allowing the old disc to be cashed in after it was reported lost/cancelled.

They are also clearly negligent by damaging the tyres with their defective lifting equipment.
Dom W
Thanks for the support guys, that is all good info there...

So, the good news is that we have the car back... The bad news is that the advice I received from the DVLA was to pay the fine and then try and claim it back... I didn't want to leave the car there any longer and risk it being crushed!!! I doubt they can resolve these things in less than 7 days!!

To cut a long story short... I arrived at the DVLA at 4pm and there was a 45min queue - I didn't really fancy waiting and risk the place closing and leaving the car in the pound another day (5pm) so I asked the girl standing by the door to take a copy of the letter I emailed (they acknowledged receipt), including all pictures, to her manager. 10 mins later she comes back and asks me to sit at an unmanned window and then the manager came over and spoke to me. Very nice chap actually and totally understood! He has also passed a copy of the letter onto the relevant person and gave me some good advice about how to deal with things and what else to send off etc.

He said the letter was very good (thanks all) and gave me his direct phone number to his office in case anything goes wrong. Basically, he acknowledged that it was a fault and it is possible the refund was 'in transit' but the fact that they issued a new tax disc should not have happened... So, yes, he thinks I have a fair claim against them.

The car appears visually undamaged and the staff at the car pound were also nice and helpful, although the manager said that they were allowed to lift cars like that... I find it hard to believe, but ok...

So, need to send another letter off with some numbers in it tomorrow to the appropriate person. In reality it has cost me about £500 (seriously) in taxis, release fees, loss of earnings etc... So, I guess there should be some margin on top for the hassle and potential damage etc..?

But, all in all, a good result as we have the car back and it would appear that even the DVLA believe I have a good case! Thank God I kept all the receipts and I have the tax disc out of the car now showing that it was issued on March 10th... And they said that I was therefore the legal owner and the previous tax disc should have been void and it should not have been paid-out.

I will fill you all in on the 'final' outcome when they respond to my letter!

Seriously - Many thanks for all your help and suggestions, I did a fair bit of cut, pasting and rewording in my letter thanks to all of you!!! I will let you know if/ when they pay up!

I will be giving the car a good clean this weekend, Ive missed it!!!

dave-o
If i were you i'd get new tyres fitted, and charge that to them when you make your claim.
They may nor appear damaged, but you might not know until you get a blow out.
Teufel
get them inspected and a report to say they are damaged
MICKY1
That surely is dangerous and I cant believe that the operators manual for that lift would class that as acceptable usage. I bet the risk assessment they have done under the Safe system at work act says the brace must encompass the full width of the tyre to prevent accidents. If your car was to drop and injure someone that operator wouldnt have a leg to stand on in court
clark_kent
QUOTE (MICKY1 @ Sat, 19 Jul 2008 - 21:16) *
If your car was to drop and injure someone that operator wouldnt have a leg to stand on in court


Like this you mean!? laugh.gif

ftc001
biggrin.gif Oh dear,

Or worse, how about those who recently removed a vehicle within which had a bomb. They obviously didn't know at the time that it had a bomb in it, they would have done had it of had a mercury switch though.
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