bigbang
Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 10:16
Hi everyone, this is my first post. Before I go into my case, I'd like to say what a great site this is.
I did search but couldn't find anything like this, i apologise if there is a similar case and i missed it.
My case is simple....I just received a bus lane contravention 34J notice. Firstly, i cannot remember driving my car in a bus lane, on the date in question. I am always very careful. It could have been anyone of at least 3 drivers in my family, and of course no one will admit to it.
Secondly, on the PCN, the last line, at the bottom of the notice it says "Below are 2 images taken from the digital video recording of your vehicle in the bus lane" BUT there are no images on the notice. They've cocked up, and forgotten to put the pictures in. Does this make any difference? Any help would be much appreciated.
Cornucopia
Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 10:27
QUOTE (bigbang @ Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 11:16)
They've cocked up, and forgotten to put the pictures in. Does this make any difference? Any help would be much appreciated.
Provision of pictures on their part at this stage is undoubtedly optional but you can obviously write back saying you are having trouble identifying any driver of the car who was in that road on that day so can they send you the pictures mentioned in their letter (as they clearly intended to do) to assist you.
Note that bus scamera operators in the Greater London area are notoriously unfair and unreasonable and have been known to do people for having a wheel only a foot or two in to a Bus Lane or whilst they have been turning out of a side road and on to the main road but managed to have their rear number plate on show while still partially in the Bus Lane.
If that turns out to be the case as well as contesting the it I would also consider writing to Boris Johnson about it personally as he clearly does not support all of the anti car hate measures previously introduced by Ken and the Scammers.
Beware also of the possibility of a cloned number plate being a possible cause of receiving such a notice these days.
nemo
Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 10:42
QUOTE (bigbang @ Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 11:16)
..i cannot remember driving my car in a bus lane, on the date in question. I am always very careful. It could have been anyone of at least 3 drivers in my family, and of course no one will admit to it.
QUOTE (Cornucopia @ Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 11:27)
...you can obviously write back saying you are having trouble identifying any driver of the car who was in that road on that day...
Liabilty will almost certainly rest with the owner of the vehicle - note that the owner may or may not have been the person driving the vehicle at the material time. Even if it transpired that a person other than the owner was driving the vehicle, this would not affect the owner's liability for any penalty arising from the contravention.
@BigBang,
Give the issuing office of the notice a call and advise that they appear to have overlooked inclusion of the photographs.
Teufel
Sat, 14 Jun 2008 - 18:36
post the pcn front and back
there is no req for pictures
bigbang
Tue, 17 Jun 2008 - 14:49
So basically, they can send the PCN through the post, supply no pics, not proove who was driving, and i'll still have to pay £60? how unfair is that! it makes me really mad.
Here's what I've received. As you can see, they've not supplied any pictures.
(I've removed my personal details.)
bigbang
Wed, 18 Jun 2008 - 21:37
So, i guess i'll have to pay this....its so wrong
southpaw82
Wed, 18 Jun 2008 - 21:40
I'm afraid I don't do CCTV PCNs but a lot of people do and can spot any errors for you. Just give it a bit until someone gives you a definite yea or nay before you hand over your hard earned cash to the council.
bigbang
Thu, 19 Jun 2008 - 20:56
Only problem is I cant wait too long, as it will go up to £120 if i dont pay or challenge within 14days
Teufel
Thu, 19 Jun 2008 - 22:03
i think this is a nonompliant pcn
'being in a bus lane' is NOT a contravention under the act
LLA 1996 part II
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/localact1996/u...9_en_2#pt2-l1g3“bus lane offence” means an offence under section 8, 11 or 13 of the [1984 c. 27.] Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 or section 36 of the [1988 c. 52.] Road Traffic Act 1988 which relates to the contravention of or failure to comply with an order or traffic sign in so far as it makes provision for or indicates a reservation of all or part of a carriageway of a road as a bus lane
and/or
For the purposes of this Part of this Act, a penalty charge is payable to a borough council with respect to a vehicle if the person in charge of the vehicle acts in contravention of or fails to comply with an order under section 6 or 9 or regulations under section 12 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 in so far as provision is made thereby for the reservation of all or part of a carriageway of a road as a bus lane.
it is not obeying the signs which is the contravention
i would appeal on this basis
chuck in TRO unlawful, TRO does not agree with signs/lines, signs/lins unlawful
and mislaading (may not be try but the ball is in their court to prove it)
bigbang
Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 20:40
Hi, thank you for taking the time to reply. However, i have read up all the regs, and i cant understand why you say the PNC is noncomplient. Can you please explain this, to enable me to write a letter, and sound like i know what im talking about!
Teufel
Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 21:06
at this stage just say 'contravention did not occour'
u will have to go to adjudiators
my argument (which is untested i think but i am fairly sure) is that 'being in a bus lane'
is not itself a contravention - they have just used a colloquial term
in addition thye have failed to qualify with ;during hours of operation'
you could be in the bus lande when not restricted
they need to say something like 'failure to comply with a sign indicating
lane reserved for buses during hours of operation'
by failing to adequatley and properly describe the allegd contraventuion the pcn is inavlid
u may be unluck and find a poor adjudciator
Alexis
Fri, 20 Jun 2008 - 22:04
"You are legally responsible for dealing with this notice. Do not pass onto the driver" sounds like it prejudices your ability to appeal.
It infers you must not contact the driver and must respond without their input. Whilst the owner is ultimately financially liable, the driver is allowed the respond to the notice, appeal to the council and appeal to the adjudicator without the registered owner being involved.
bigbang
Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 14:34
Thanks again guys for your help.
Can someone answer this question also.....If turning left, accross the bus lane, how far before the turning, can you enter the bus lane?
And does anyone know where this is stated in the motoring 'terms and conditions'
The reason i ask is that my son has put his hands up to this, but he said he went into the bus lane just a few yards before the turning to turn left. Thx
Neil B
Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 15:05
There is nothing in law to define such an allowance. The markings on the road are the defining points.
Some Councils 'say' they make an allowance and some even define a distance - but whether they actually stand by it is another matter.
You could claim 'de minimus' - which basically means that although you were in contravention the effect was of minimal or no consequence.
Teufel
Sat, 21 Jun 2008 - 15:19
unless the signs/lines/arrows indicate otherwise you can only drive across
the bus lane not along it
this can make turning left incredibly dangerous (eg left on park lane london headng south!)
bigbang
Sun, 22 Jun 2008 - 13:55
Thanks guys. I am going to write the letter today, and i will let you know the outcome.
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