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fairygothmother
Hi everyone, long long time no speak! But as soon as I get in trouble you know I'll be back, this time with a parking ticket query!

Rec'd ticket last Sat, its an FPN for parking in a residents bay. From what I've read on here I think its a 1028.4 bay BUT it has a double line at each end not a single one. Going to take photos this afternoon, but would appreciate if anyone can tell me if I'm going along the right lines here?? If so, what would my next move be?

Regards The Fairy!!
bama
received FPN from who exactly ?
fairygothmother
Was from a police officer - so in this case South Wales Police
fairygothmother
Ok, going to go out and take photos, the bay is definately a 'non prescribed 1028' as per the photos in your link bama. I will post up pics as soon as i get home, cheers!
fairygothmother
OK, got pics, tried to take a photo of the ticket but cant get a clear enough shot - let me know if you desperately need this!!

Pic of the sign:



And 2 pics of the DOUBLE lines at the end of the bay:





So, first off is the ticket enforceable? And secondly if its a tad dodgy what should I do next?
The Fairy!
fairygothmother
anyone got any advice on this or am i barking up the wrong tree?
The Rookie
As an FPN is still criminalised parking, a lot of the easy 'get outs' for decrim' PCN's do not apply, I suspect the Hybrid bay will be counted as de minimis and the penalty stand if you go to court, if this were decrim were they have to follow the letter of the law then I think you would have been OK (sorry).

Simon
fairygothmother
Bummer!
Thx for the reply Simon, guess I will have to bend over and take this one like a good girl sad.gif
Neil B
QUOTE (fairygothmother @ Sun, 1 Jun 2008 - 22:52) *
Bummer!
Thx for the reply Simon, guess I will have to bend over and take this one like a good girl sad.gif


Hmmm, doesn't seem fair.

Magistrates, it seems, can decide whatever they like? I always remind myself they are not legally trained - Adjudicators are!

Maybe if you could present a Magistrate with evidence of appeals allowed by the Adjudicator re the non-compliant bays he/she would have a precedent to refer to?

I always explain it to disbelieving friends as 'the need to have standards'. If, for instance, tape measures were not standardised we would be in a right mess. A tape measure is a tape measure when it conforms to standards and a parking bay likewise - if not, it isn't one.

On the tape measure comparison - if you build an extension just 100mm in excess of approved plans because you used a 'non-compliant' tape measure, guess who would be telling you to knock it down!!! biggrin.gif Non- compliant tape 'cancel extension': Non-compliant bay 'cancel PCN'!

asically, I'm suggesting that you might present a case by backing it up with hard facts and explanations. I can't imagine a Magstrate being able to ignore statute?

Risky, so up to you.
Glacier2
QUOTE
I can't imagine a Magistrate being able to ignore statute?

The clerk can and often does tell them what to think.
Neil B
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 2 Jun 2008 - 14:26) *
QUOTE
I can't imagine a Magistrate being able to ignore statute?

The clerk can and often does tell them what to think.


Yeah, i understand the function of the Clerk (legally qualified) and how they are often the real person in charge.

Do you think there would be any mileage in this particular case Glacier?
Glacier2
If the OP gets the right type of clerk/bench then yes. I don't know if adjudications would be seen as binding on the bench.
With the court it is really a 50/50 shot. Depends if you are a gambler or not. smile.gif
patdavies
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 1 Jun 2008 - 09:36) *
As an FPN is still criminalised parking, a lot of the easy 'get outs' for decrim' PCN's do not apply, I suspect the Hybrid bay will be counted as de minimis and the penalty stand if you go to court, if this were decrim were they have to follow the letter of the law then I think you would have been OK (sorry).

Simon

But case law (Davies v Heatley) does definitely apply as precedent in a criminal court; whereas adjudicators within the DPE regime have been known to ignore case law as "non-applicable".


A samll variation in the width of the lines might be de minimis, but a completely wrong bay cannot possibly be de minimis.
fairygothmother
Hi all,
Sorry to bring this to the fore again, but I have recently rec'd another ticket on the same parking bay with the same wrongly marked lines. This time it is from a traffic warden and not a police officer. Is it now worth contesting and if so what advice can you give me about going about it?
Thanking you in advance,
The Fairy
fairygothmother
Just to confirm, the ticket this time is definately a PCN, however, it had 28 days to pay from 20/02/09 - am I too late to challenge it? Thanks
The Fairy
Glacier2
If this is decrim you should get a NTO and you can appeal from there. smile.gif

Can you post up this PCN?
fairygothmother
Hi Glacier,
On the back of the ticket there is a lot of information......the one of interest is entitled 'To Challenge' whereby it says:
"If you believe that the penalty should not be paid and wish to challenge the PCN:
Write to: (County address)
Please quote the PCN number, the vehicle registration number and your address in all correspondence."

Further down it says, under the title 'If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged'
"If the PCN is not paid on or before the 28 day period as specified on the front of the notice or successfully challenged, the Council may serve a Notice To Owner on the owner of the vehicle requiring payment of the penalty charge. The owner can then make representations to the Council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if those representations are rejected. The Notice To Owner will will contain instructions for doing this. If you challenge this PCN but the council issues a Notice To Owner anyway, the owner must follow the instructions on the Notice To Owner."

So, is it best to put my challenge in writing first, or to wait for the NTO?

Thanks for the reply I will try and photograph the ticket and upload it, although it may take a few photos as it is a very long slip of paper!

The Fairy
fairygothmother
Photos as promised. Sorry they are not great quality, other half is out with the camera!









HTH The Fairy
Glacier2
No point in sending in an informal appeal now as you are outside the discount zone.

I would sit back an await the NTO and go from there.

Would saying you must appeal within 28 days be prejudicial? Esp as they will have to issue a NTO. It is kinda saying you must make an informal appeal.
fairygothmother
Thats great thanks Glacier,
I will post again once I get the NTO!
Fairy
fairygothmother
OK, NTO received!
The letter I have received states that I must now make representations to the council if I believe the ticket should not be paid. I have a choice of tick boxes:

The alleged contravention did not occur

There has been a procedural inpropriety by the enforcement authority (Tick this box if you believe that City and county of Swansea has failed to comply with any requirement imposed by the Traffic Management Act 2004, by the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Wales) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2008 or by the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Wales) General Regulations 2008 Regulations.)

The order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned is invalid.

Plus a few others about the vehicle owner which do not apply. Which of these boxes should I tick? Or maybe more than one? Also, would anyone be kind enough to draft me a letter given the circumstances which would be good to send off? I'm not very good t writing legal letters!

Thanks in advance,

The Fairy
southpaw82
Show us the NTO. It may contain errors.
bama
ALL of it please (every side of every page). scrubbed of course.
fairygothmother
Ok, here it is for your viewing pleasure:








(The blurred part of this image at the top says "Write your representation here (attach any extra sheets if necessary)



HTH The Fairy
Glacier2
Did they send you a copy in welsh?
fairygothmother
Yes they did, didn't post it up as I didnt think it would be of any use, but can do if necessary?
Fairy
Glacier2
No need for that. smile.gif

I was hoping they didn't and you could get them under the Welsh Language Act 1993.

Ah well! smile.gif
fairygothmother
Damn!!
LOL, so which box do I tick......and what shall I write by means of a letter? Any help appreciated!
The Fairy
fairygothmother
Guys, please can I have some help with this......I have decided to fight the ticket as the road markings are clearly wrong, however I could really do with a hand in finding out what to tick and what to write,
Please help crybaby2.gif
The Fairy
dave-o
I can help with that bit.

So far, we know that the bay is a hybrid bay. That's one point.
Have you gone and got measurements yet?
fairygothmother
Thanks Dave-o!
No havent got any measurements.......what do I need to measure exactly - just the width of the bay?
Fairy
dave-o
All of these:



Print it out and take a tape measure.
fairygothmother
Ok been out with the tape measure. As you can see some measurements are fine others are out of the range given. The 550 refers to a measurement between two of the lines part of the way up the road. Hope you can understand what I have done?

Fairy

vw driver




I am unsure of the 550...? Does the above look right (based on your diagram)?
fairygothmother
Yes thats correct. I forgot to measure A, but I did take the sheet outside with me when measuring and wrote each measurement down as I went along. If I get a chance tomorrow I will measure the bit I left out.
Fairy
fairygothmother
Ok bit A was 265 so well within limits...........been unable to get access to the computer for the last few days and I have to send the letter off tomorrow to ensure its in time. Anyone who is willing to help would be much much appreciated as I really don't know where to start writing legal letters.
Thanks,
The Fairy
dave-o
As requested by PM:


________________________________________

I am writing to appeal PCN no. XXXXXXXXXX

My appeal is on the grounds that the contravention did not occur due to the bay in question not conforming to regulations, and therefore being unenforcable.

The bay seems to be purporting to be a 1028.4, as defined in the TSRGD 2002 (diagram included). However, it features double termination dashes, as featured in a 1032 bay (diagram included).
Conversely, if the bay is purporting to be a 1032, it does not feature the required bay dividing dashes.
The gap between the termination dashes also deviates significantly from the dimensions allowed in the TSRGD 2002. According to regulation, this gap should be 600mm. The gap in question is 470mm. This represents a 21% deviation from the regulations.

The bay in question, therefore, does not correspond with any bay specified in the TSRGD 2002, and as such cannot be enforced.

I request that you cancel PCN no. XXXXXXXX, and inform me of cancellation. Should cancellation not be forthcoming, i will have no hesitation in taking my appeal to the independant adjudicator.

________________________________________-

I'm honestly not sure how strong it will be. The dash deviation may be considered de minimis, but the fact it is a hybrid bay should be a winner. If another member has had a PCN cancelled on hybrid bay markings alone, perhaps they could comment.

Ultimately there is always a chance that the council will send you a dodgy NOR, or just not want to attend adjudication, so i would say your chances are good.

And here's the 1032 diagram:

fairygothmother
Dave-o you are an absolute superstar, I really would not have known where to start with this!
I cant thank you enough biggrin.gif and promise to keep you updated on what happens!
The Fairy
vw driver
@ Dave-o - Are the other deviations (B,D,E above) so minor that they cannot be challenged?
dave-o
Well i guess there is no harm mentioning them, but i wouldn't consider deviations of less than 10% significant. An adjudicator may well consider them de minimis too. It may make your appeal seem fussy. It's up to the individual really. The hybrid bay aspect is the core of this appeal anyway.
fairygothmother
Letter all posted and got proof of posting, didn't mention the other deviations so we will see how I get on. Any idea how long it will take them to reply?
Fairy
Glacier2
Could take a few weeks. They have 56 days to respond.
fairygothmother
Thanks Glacier, Will post again when I get a response!
Fairy

Also I noticed the line painters out today on a side road off the one where I got the PCN - making new residents bays with the correct markings! These were previously unmarked and anyone could park there! Watch this space!
fairygothmother
Success!!!!
I yesterday received a letter from the council saying that the road markings on the road are currently under review and on this occasion the NTO has been cancelled!
Thankyou all ever so much for your advice and help - couldnt have done it without you, Im chuffed! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
dave-o
Excellent!

Just goes to show - it's always worth a pop, and always worth digging for some dirt.
fairygothmother
Sure is Im well pleased and a special thanks to you dave-o for drafting the letter for me, worked perfectly! biggrin.gif
vw driver
Good job smile.gif

(The second time today I have said congrats to a winner!)
fairygothmother
Thanks VW driver! I wonder how long its going to take them to change the lines - its a narrow road and everyone double parks! Plus, there are loads of bays in Swansea with these incorrect markings!
Fairy
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