Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Charge certificate issued although appeal lodged
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
jil
Please can anyone help a complete novice? I received a TFL penalty charge notice on 24 January 2008, and subsequently a notice to owner dated 20 March. I appealed to TFL in writing on 14 April, within the 28 days allowed. I sent the appeal registered post and have evidence from the post office that it was received by TFL on 15 April. I have now received a charge certificate, stating that I must pay an increased amount of £180. There is no option for appeal at this stage. I had no idea that the amount would increase, and have not had an acknowledgement of my appeal. Am I being a numpty, or is there something wrong here? The charge certificate is scary, and I am tempted to just pay it to prevent the threatened court order being issued, but I have a vague feeling I am being bullied......
Neil B
Hi,

See the thread on this page "This is getting serious" and also my thread "Oops, advice please" a few pages back.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=28450



Neil B
Don't think you have much to worry about as far as getting your appeal responded to goes: They may well be dealing with it.

You could phone and ask? This also serves the purpose of showing them you won't put up with too much nonsense!

They may well have done enough to stuff themselves already though - I'm not sure - others will comment.

Scan and post all the relevant documents, with personal details removed and people will check them for other errors.

PCN, NTO, CC and possibly your representations.
Adenuff
Ok this is happening more and more often especially with TfL. Do not pay it at this stage

First of all you should phone TfL and tell them that you sent in representations to which you have not received a reply. Sometimes they will say that there was a "computer error" and the CC was sent out by mistake and they will withdraw it. If this happens get the person you speak to's name and ID number. (They will prob only give you a first name)

Sometimes they will tell you that a Notice of Rejection was sent to you on such and such a date. If they tell you this then judging by the dates in your OP, the CC will be very premature and therefore its issue may be fatal to their case.

Don't worry about the threats implied on the CC- I'll expand on this when you've established whether the CC was issued by mistake or not.
jil
Thanks for the help. I have now rung TFL twice. The first time a woman told me that sent a notice of rejection of my appeal the day BEFORE the CC was issued (though mysteriously this has not yet arrived). The second time I got through to a man who did give me his name, who told me simply to ignore the CC as it had been issued in error. But I have visions of the horrible bailiff people coming to clamp my car. Telling them that a man called X told me to ignore the CC isn't going to work, is it?
Neil B
No bailiffs will come until a County Court issues a recovery order against you. Seems you have time but hard to tell because you are still not telling us all dates.

Also, you are not saying anything about the circumstances of the contravention or posting up the images that might help you?

jil
Sorry - still trying to work out how to post the scanned docs. Forgive my slowness! Which dates have I missed out?
Neil B
QUOTE (jil @ Tue, 6 May 2008 - 13:23) *
Sorry - still trying to work out how to post the scanned docs. Forgive my slowness! Which dates have I missed out?


Charge Certificate and deadline.

I'm crap at scanning too but there are links in various threads and probably somewhere on page headers to help.
jil
Oh sorry. Here's the timeline:

PCN 24/1/2008
Notice to Owner dated 20/3/2008
Charge certificate dated 1/5/2008 to be "paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the charge certificate is served".

I have the docs scanned as a word doc and have read the help pages but am still struggling with how to post!
jil
Ummmm...thanks! So I have to get software to convert my PDF to a JPEG, register with a whole other site, and then I can upload the scan? Eeek.
bama
or you could just upload the pdf...
jil
Can I? Through Imageshack? But the website says its an illegal format? God I'm so stoooopid!
Adenuff
QUOTE (jil @ Tue, 6 May 2008 - 13:07) *
Thanks for the help. I have now rung TFL twice. The first time a woman told me that sent a notice of rejection of my appeal the day BEFORE the CC was issued (though mysteriously this has not yet arrived). The second time I got through to a man who did give me his name, who told me simply to ignore the CC as it had been issued in error. But I have visions of the horrible bailiff people coming to clamp my car. Telling them that a man called X told me to ignore the CC isn't going to work, is it?


This doesn't work this way.

If for some reason the CC is not withdrawn when its time limit for payment expires you will receive two forms. One will be the Order for recovery of an unpaid penalty charge and the other will be a Statutory Declaration. The first form will let you pay the fine of £180 +£5 fee (so no Bailiffs) or you can take the second option of completing the Statutory Declaration.

If you take that option, one of the grounds is that you made representations but did not receive a rejection notice. You fill that form in and send it off and TEC will order the CC to be cancelled by TfL

The down side is that you have to have your signature witnessed by a solicitor and a solicitor will charge you - typically £10.00 or so
jil
Thank you adenuff. That's a huge relief. I wonder how many people pay up at this stage even though the CC has been incorrectly issued?
Adenuff
Glad to help

Incidentally the easiest way to check if the CC has actually been cancelled by Tfl is to go online as if you were going to pay the PCN and see what amount comes up. (You can exit after its told you how much). But it might take a couple of days for them to update system
jil
Thanks - excellent tip. I'll have a look tomorrow and see if its still there. I am still (naively) stunned that this kind of thing can happen......
Neil B
So even though you haven't been able to post the images yet - are you ever going to tell us the circumstances of the contravention? biggrin.gif
jil
Oh its a dull old covered-a-million times before ticket in a red route loading bay contravention. The parking warden didn't see me unload the cello, scooter and rucksack, and when I returned to the car (four minutes had elapsed) he said I shouldn't have parked there as it was for commercial loading, and asked if I had not seen the truck on the sign. There is no truck on the sign of course, and its not for commercial loading. But I have no receipt for the delivery (it wasn't commercial) and now I expect they can change the reason for issuing the ticket to simply not observed to be loading in the four minutes, as there is nothing on the PCN that gives the specific reason for issuing the ticket. No doubt I'll lose, but they really annoy me. He was simply ticketing every non-commercial vehicle in the bay.
Neil B
Thanks.

Don't worry, someone may have an idea yet.

Still worth trying to get those scans up.



jil
Hopefully the scans of the PCN, Notice to owner and charge certificate are here......though I don't suppose they are special in any way. Thank you to everyone who has helped/replied so far.







Neil B
QUOTE (jil @ Tue, 6 May 2008 - 15:28) *
Oh its a dull old covered-a-million times before ticket in a red route loading bay contravention. The parking warden didn't see me unload the cello, scooter and rucksack, and when I returned to the car (four minutes had elapsed) he said I shouldn't have parked there as it was for commercial loading, and asked if I had not seen the truck on the sign. There is no truck on the sign of course, and its not for commercial loading. But I have no receipt for the delivery (it wasn't commercial) and now I expect they can change the reason for issuing the ticket to simply not observed to be loading in the four minutes, as there is nothing on the PCN that gives the specific reason for issuing the ticket. No doubt I'll lose, but they really annoy me. He was simply ticketing every non-commercial vehicle in the bay.


I can't immediately see anything wrong with those images but Loads of others on here know better than me.

One thing I did spot is that you miss-described the contravention (and the parking attendant then it seems may have misled you on the reasons for issue)
You got the PCN for 'stopping' not for the fact you were not seen loading. I'm guessing the red route is restricted at that time of day - many are 4pm -7pm. Times will be on the signs if you were in one of those red route loading bays. Can you check?
jil
This is the photo I took. I also asked the parking warden to take some as I could see the PCN wasn't very clear about why I was being ticketed. Though I have not been sent his photos!

Neil B
That resolves that issue then!

I hope someone can help from another angle.

Only thing I can think of now is the issue of how long the attendant observed the vehicle. Asking to see the notebook might be useful (I won one on that).

That said, I am always loathe to ask for something that they might doctor if it incriminates them. It would be available as evidence if you proceed to Adjudication.

I don't think you can lose anything (other than your time and sanity) if you appeal to the adjudicator. A negative result would still result in the current £120- amount.

It will be interesting to hear or see what the NoR says? Has it arrived yet?
Adenuff
Doesn't matter what the PA said, you are allowed to stop and unload in that box for up to 20 minutes. (But this is the maximum time allowed and only if that time was reasonable for the unloading required.)

Nor do you have to have documentation to prove it although it helps of course.


Whatever the situation I think that the premature issue of the CC may very well be fatal to TfLs case per Miah versus Westminster
Neil B
Certainly seems a few possibilities.

Just going back to my suggestion of the notebook being useful>> I had already noticed you said you only took 4 minutes. Now I see you say the attendant ticketed every non-commercial in the bay. Makes me wonder further what that notebook says as far as observation goes?? How many vehicles, how many notes, how long does it take to issue several PCNs, etc. Unlikely he's got his notebook in order for that lot!

As for documentation - you were unloading a cello! Hardly something that you can get easily in and out of a vehicle is it? It might seem daft but just some evidence that you have a connection with the cello, i.e. yours, your profession, somebody elses, connection to that location - might all be useful. Adjudicators will listen to anything you offer even if it just acts as an indication. You would have something to indicate that in all probability you were loading and the Council would have nothing to dispute it apart from the attendant's observations which he might, just might have noted poorly.
(Someone feel free to shoot me down if I'm talking tosh!).

NoR yet?
jil
Good God. You mean I might have a case? I thought it was pretty much futile but was so cross I was persevering (though uploading photos onto this website was almost the end of me!). I actually saw them ticketing cars in ANOTHER bay (just around the corner on the high street) just before I pulled into this one. I would be suprised if they had managed 4 minutes observation in both places as I really don't think I was away from the vehicle for 8 minutes. I can certainly prove we have a cello if that is in any way helpful. I wonder why they haven't sent me the photos that the warden took? And I still don't have the notice of rejection.....how long can it take? Its six days since the CC arrived.....Thank you all for the encouragement and help. Great site.

Teufel
unless the signs restrict loading to particular clasees of vehicle any goods vehicle can use

any car with capacity to cary goods (so maybe not a caterham 7) is a goods vehicle

see patas case jane packer v westminster

also documentation of loading is not a requirement - see same case
jil
Thanks Teufel. I used all that in my appeal letter already, and TFL (apparently - though there is no sign of it) have rejected my appeal. I get the impression that TFL reject out of hand anyway, and you more or less have to go to PATAS to get anyone to look at the case properly?
Glacier2
QUOTE
I get the impression that TFL reject out of hand anyway, and you more or less have to go to PATAS to get anyone to look at the case properly?

You have played this game before? smile.gif
jil
No, but I've read an awful lot! biggrin.gif
jil
Okay I've checked online at the TFL payment website as suggested above, and the CC is still there, still expecting payment of £180. They have also posted some extraordinary photos of the contravention - I can only guess that the attendant was not concentrating as they seem to be of streetlights. Also, my car is described on the online payment system as black, when in fact it is blue, but the colour of the car doesn't appear anywhere else (not on PCN or NTO for example). And I STILL haven't received the alleged rejection notice. I really don't know what I should do next. Anyone clever about? Please?
Glacier2
You are going to need to wait for TFL to issue a Notice for Recovery. With that there will be forms to make a Statutory Declaration. Complete these on the basis that you made representations to the Notice To Owner and you have not received a Notice of Rejection. This will put the matter back to the NTO stage and TFL can reissue the NTO and you can make representations again.
jil
Thank you!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.