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Majority
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2008
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - B4638 Woodgreen Drive towards Marsh Avenue (L), CA17 Warndon
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Unknown - I always endevour to abide by the prevailing limit






NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 01 May 2008 15:08:49 +0100
Majority
Hi Guys,

Sorry, I'm here again sad.gif

Just to be clear what the wizard says - best advice is now to complete, sign and return the section 172 statement on the 27day and then do nothing for awhile?

Jc
The Rookie
I would always advocate
1/ Writing and ask for "photo's to help ID the driver" or similar, it may highlight a problem, at worst you get a souvenir (don't ask for ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’)
2/ Reply giving all the info they want in a letter (inc ref numbers) so they can't use image recognition software on your form and have to work for a living!

The scammers are all on fixed budgets now, so the more work they have to put in to ‘do’ each ‘customer’ the less ‘customers’ they can ‘do’!

Simon
Majority
From reading the other posts I guess things have move on? unsigned form and pace letters etc are no longer a way to go?

Ja
nemo
QUOTE (Majority @ Sat, 3 May 2008 - 12:35) *
..unsigned form and pace letters etc are no longer a way to go?

Going unsigned is still advocated for those in Scotland, but not for those in England or Wales.

And the PACE Witness Statement is no longer recommended followng the ECtHR ruling last June.


Majority
Hi guys,
As I was having difficulty recalling the event and who may have been driving the scammers have now provided copies of photos that show the alledged offence and help me identify the driver (mobile scammer van, pics of front of car, cross hairs on number plate). I also see in the pic that there was another vehicle close behind,
As I'm a carefull driver who endevours to comply with all prevailing limits could the 2nd vehicle have caused a false reading? should I be asking for further conformation that their equipment is acurate? are there any other avenues to explore?

Any suggestions very welcome,
Pete D
To be honest NO. If the vehicle behind you was doing 35 and you were not then they would have rammed you. Add to this the laser is being targetted as per the rules then I do not see a way out. You may get offered a speed awarness course £70 to £90 ish but no points. You could when you reply even politely ask for one. Remember you 'must ' apply within the 28 days. Pete D
Majority
That's a fold then? I'll send my £60 quid off mad.gif
Ocelot
They aren't asking for any money yet, just to identify who is the driver. As PeteD says they may offer you a SAC. It is probably best to send off the form and await their next move - you haven't admitted guilt at this point.

From http://www.westmercia.police.uk/foi/meetin...mber%202007.pdf

"Opportunities for improvementSpeed Awareness Training – Adrian Pass reported on anational ACPO initiative relating to speed awareness training.Any driver passing a speed camera at 35/40 miles per hourwould be encouraged to attend speed awareness training toavoid a fixed penalty and three points on their licence. Anexternal provider would conduct the speed awarenesstraining and funding for a project manager to take thisinitiative forward would be provided via the Road Safety Partnership."
JPM1
35 in a 30!! That's a bit harsh. What happened to ACPO guidelines of 10%+2
nemo
QUOTE (JPM1 @ Wed, 21 May 2008 - 19:36) *
35 in a 30!! That's a bit harsh. What happened to ACPO guidelines of 10%+2

The speed enforcement guidelines suggest that the minimum enforcement action which should be taken at an excess speed of 10% plus 2mph (ie 35 in a 30) is the issue of a fixed penalty notice.

And note that there is nothing in the guidelines which would specifically preclude prosecution of excess speeds below the 10% plus 2mph threshold anyway.
Majority
The NIP offers that the matter can be dealt by a fixed penalty of £60 and 3 points by completing a specific section on the NIP and returning together with a cheque and a driving licence - alternatively - a day in court, no mention of any other options,

On another point, the NIP did not demand that the registered keeper should specifically supply the details of the driver within 28days, only that the keeper should reply within 28days???

Also, Ive been invited to the scammers office to view the original pics to help remind me of the event and who may have been the driver, any problem with accepting the invite?

I guess if the 'day in court' was chosen it would be a lot more costly? (for such a pityfull excess just thought it might send a message back to the power that be)

Once again, greatful for any comments
Majority
QUOTE (nemo @ Wed, 21 May 2008 - 21:11) *
QUOTE (JPM1 @ Wed, 21 May 2008 - 19:36) *
35 in a 30!! That's a bit harsh. What happened to ACPO guidelines of 10%+2

The speed enforcement guidelines suggest that the minimum enforcement action which should be taken at an excess speed of 10% plus 2mph (ie 35 in a 30) is the issue of a fixed penalty notice.

And note that there is nothing in the guidelines which would specifically preclude prosecution of excess speeds below the 10% plus 2mph threshold anyway.


Except a sense of fair play, a little tollarance and a desire not to treat the majority as if they are all criminals (because if you treat the majority like that - then that's what they will become), I guess all the above are programmed out of those who are cloned to enforce? no wonder they feel detached!!!
nemo
QUOTE (Majority @ Thu, 22 May 2008 - 00:48) *
Except a sense of fair play, a little tollarance and a desire not to treat the majority as if they are all criminals...

Do not expect any discretion from the scammers - they are incapable. Unlike the majority of proper police, it has to be said..
The Rookie
Why not blank identifying details from the pics and post so we can comment without relying on our interpretation of your description.

Simon
Majority
Cheers Simon, here we go


Majority
My theory is that the 2nd car must have been aproaching me at 35 the instance the reading was taken (creating the false reading) then they back off as they spotted the scammera's van? you know the way these kids drive - they zoom up to your rear bumper then drop back to over take you when it becomes obvious that your not going to speed up, kids eh!!! what can you do with them?
The Rookie
The laser cones diameter is not realistically large enough to be measuring the following cars speed unless there is a big misalignment.

I can't see there having been much prior opinion, but getting the magistrates to believe that is very hard, also the laser is impacting the road, but as its unlikley he was tracking down, I doubt that is an issue....you may of course be able to find one of these errors should you take it to court and get the video, but personally I think its unlikely.

Simon
Pete D
No that's a clean hit. Are you really straggling the lane markings. Why not ask to view the video by appointment and you'll be able to concince yourself one way or the other. Pete D
Majority
QUOTE (Pete D @ Fri, 23 May 2008 - 09:10) *
No that's a clean hit. Are you really straggling the lane markings. Why not ask to view the video by appointment and you'll be able to concince yourself one way or the other. Pete D


No, I'm not straggling the lane markings, its just the curvature of the road,

I have my appointment to view today, from all your comments (which I thank you all for) It seems as if its a fold,

What I'm disappointed with is the following,
I've been driving for over 35 years (up to 20k mile per year) and never been in or caused an accident, my record proves that I'm a safe driver and I used to consider myself a law abiding citizen showing respect for the law and the police but those views have now been changed by this stupid and pitiful event (35mph for gods sake!), they get their £60 and 3 points but they loose my respect and create a different attitude in me,

And before someone stands up for the police - this is all being done in their name - if they think it erodes respect for the law and for themselves maybe they should put a stop to it!
Majority
Just to Update and bring to an end,

After viewing the footage at Scammera's HQ yesterday I was able to put forward my comments face to face with their resident police man,

I congratulated him on a really successful trap - (this road has no houses fronting on to it, no footpaths and no pedestrians yet is 30mph with purpose built scammera pull ins!)

I asked, if during normal policing, if he had ever nicked anyone for doing 35 in a 30? he declined to answer which implied no,

I suggested that the majority people would think that nicking someone for 35 in 30 was unfair - he agreed,

And after he accepted the fact that my driving record proves that I'm a safe driver I explained that I used to consider myself a law abiding citizen showing respect for the law and the police but those views have now been changed by this stupid policy to hit soft targets - he understood my point and regretted that change,

They now have my £60 but I hope they understand that 3 points on an 'up to now' clean licence for a stupid thing like this is like 'zero tolerance' in reverse, its no longer clean! so a few more points won't make much difference now!

End result - another dangerous motorist taught a lesson? another criminal bought to justice? £60 well earnt? I think not!
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