JAMESVFR205
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 16:57
Hi,
On the 11th of April, about 7.00pm, I was coming home from work on my VFR400 motorbike with a few problems on my mind, including my girlfriend as we were going through a rough patch and so i wanted to get home fairly quickly but safely. As i came out of the carpark to turn left, you carry on for about 20 meters and there is a taxi rank. In the taxi rank was a ford focus police car with no in it, so i carried on the one way system for about half a mile until i got to a mini roundabout and normal 2 way traffic resumed. when going straight ahead over the roundabout i looked right, no one there, so i rode across, but as i was going over, there were 2 cars all stuck behind a really really slow car that in my opinion was doing under 30mph in a 30mph speed limit. because i accelarated from the roundabout at a fairly quik speed, i knew that there was no one behind me so overtook all cars who i knew heard me (exhaust is really loud, but legal, and they all moved over), but was within white lines, so still in the left hand lane, i overtook and tuck back in when going up this long hill to my house. I carried on accelarating but wasnt payin attention to my speedo. i got to the top of the hill and let of the accelarator as i was near my house and a car was in front, so no need to overtake. As soon as i was about to indicate to turn right, i suddenly heard really loud sirens behind me, checked my mirrors, and he police car overtook a car behind me, but then didnt overtake me, so i assumed he wanted to pull me over. I signalled to him that i had realised he wanted me to stop by lifting my hand in the air (basically i backwards wave) indicated, checked mirrors, lifesaver, and turned into a cul-de-sac next to my house.
As soon as i stopped, i switched of my engine and took off my helmet and got off the bike and to my surprise it was the same police car outside the taxi rank, (he must of been speeding excessively to try and catch me up? and for no reason too?). Only one officer was within the car (he wasnt a traffic cop). He boldly got out of the car and shouted 'what the fuck do you think your doing' and 'your going to loose your license mate' he then pulled out his handcuffs and cautioned me and chucked me in the car. All of this happened so fast, and i was really scared, worried and extremely nervous that i would because i already have 3 points n i only passed my test 7 months ago and of his aggressive nature. I didnt think i had done anything wrong, apart from maybe going a little fast overtaking the three cars and so waited until he had stopped talking, but i couldnt get a word in edge ways, trying to apologise, but he was being aggressive and telling me to shut up. so i bit my lip and let him tell me what i did wrong. He said i failed to stop for him and that is why you are being arrested along with going to fast overtaking cars, i then told him im exremely sorry, i have had a really bad day, my girlfriend and I are having a bad time, things are on my mind, i kno its not an excuse to go fast, i just wasnt thinking and kept on apoligising. He then said i signalled you to pull over at the bottom of the hill when you started to overtake, i replied saying i did not hear or see you and if i did i would of stopped immediately in a safe place, i only pulled over for you at the top, when i saw you!? if i saw you at the bottom i would of done the same, i havent got anything to hide, im all legal.
He then wanted my ID and it was in my pocket, took a time to get it out and he asked told me out get out of the car so he could retrieve it, he then got my licence and was doing a check on me aswell as my motorbike, everything came back fine and he then de-arrested me. i kept on apoligising as i was really sorry, explaining that i wasn't trying to avoid him or trying to get away, im not that kind of person, im a student who uses this bike to travel 50miles everyday to get to university and would not intend to evade the law and loose my licence intentionally.
He finished all the checks and started to get into his car and i then said, what happens from now!? he replied saying that i will have to relay this information to my superior tonight who was the head traffic officer on duty that night and they will have the final say based on his account of what happened which i think was extremely unfair. I then pleaded with him saying im so sorry, i wont be able to get to uni everyday and that i have just lost my licence by doing this one stupid thing and begged him basically to give me some mercy. he then said there are two routes that could happen, you'll get an NIP within 14 days, or if it doesnt come through the post within 14 days, it will mean its just a warning, i then pleaded with him to think about it, and then he replied, it will give you something to think about in the 2 weeks and went off and it really has, im pranging! the officer did not give me any slips of paper or anything to say i was stopped and he certainly did not say he has given me a verbal NIP so i am just waiting for this NIP to come through the post, if it doesnt does it mean im in the clear for definate? Ive been talking to so many people and they all say you wont get anything as he treated you extremely unfairly, shouted at me and swore, and arrested me for no reason, (i think anyway, i wouldn't be saying that if it wasn't the truth) and he was on his own, its my word against his, he has no proof i was speeding and no witness's to back up i was overtaking too fast or failed to stop. he also did not give me any pieces of paper to say i have been stopped!? and also its his word aginst mine in court, would he go to all that trouble with so little eveidence, basically nothing??
I would appreciate your opinions on my case and help me out with what you think will happen?
Thankyou,
James.
davepoth
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 19:47
I *think* he was bullshitting you. Throwing you handcuffed into the back of the car and arresting and cautioning you for whatever it was can be considered a verbal NIP.
JAMESVFR205
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 21:21
yeh, but if he deliberately said you mite get an NIP through the post, can they also give me a verbal one? how do you know if they did? do they say clearly?
southpaw82
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 21:27
Words to the effect of "The facts will be reported for consideration of prosecution for the offence of XXX." Those exact words don't have to be used but the meaning must be conveyed.
If I were you I'd be more concerned about the unlawful arrest
Zed Victor One
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 21:48
QUOTE (davepoth @ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 20:47)
I *think* he was bullshitting you. Throwing you handcuffed into the back of the car and arresting and cautioning you for whatever it was can be considered a verbal NIP.
To the best of my knowledge cautioning someone when they are arrested is completely different to giving them a verbal NIP. There are exemptions from not giving an NIP, one of which is that the offender contributed through their actions to it being impractical.
Theres nothing I've read in the orignal post that would suggest this was the case.
At the point where you overtook the cars is it solid or broken white lines? obviously a solid white line is a no, no. I would doubt if he had any way of ascertaining exactly what speed you were doing as he had no in car equipment to measure it with and his speed would have been a closing speed not a constant speed. Personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it and would only worry if an NIP turned up although based on what you've said I'm not sure what it would be for.
It all sounds a bit heavy handed for what you've described as happening, if however it is as you described I would consider making a complaint as we don't really need police officers with attitudes like that.
davepoth
Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 22:01
I guess I was being a little glib. I figure being arrested and cautioned for something would remove the need for a NIP (i.e. the copper would have to have seen you, and not just your vehicle, doing something bad)
JAMESVFR205
Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 14:09
QUOTE (Zed Victor One @ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 22:48)
QUOTE (davepoth @ Mon, 21 Apr 2008 - 20:47)
I *think* he was bullshitting you. Throwing you handcuffed into the back of the car and arresting and cautioning you for whatever it was can be considered a verbal NIP.
To the best of my knowledge cautioning someone when they are arrested is completely different to giving them a verbal NIP. There are exemptions from not giving an NIP, one of which is that the offender contributed through their actions to it being impractical.
Theres nothing I've read in the orignal post that would suggest this was the case.
At the point where you overtook the cars is it solid or broken white lines? obviously a solid white line is a no, no. I would doubt if he had any way of ascertaining exactly what speed you were doing as he had no in car equipment to measure it with and his speed would have been a closing speed not a constant speed. Personally I wouldn't lose any sleep over it and would only worry if an NIP turned up although based on what you've said I'm not sure what it would be for.
It all sounds a bit heavy handed for what you've described as happening, if however it is as you described I would consider making a complaint as we don't really need police officers with attitudes like that.
thanks for your reply, i didnt resist arrest or contribute through my actions to make it impractical, i obeyed and understood and took everything in, so im thinking it should definately be through the post NIP, i hope!
the overtaking i made sure was legal, and so i could overtake, but i didnt even cross the lines as i was still in my original lane, all the cars just shifted to left so there was no need to cross the white line, and it wasn't a solid one either
If nothing comes through the post, im going to check to see if anything has been registered with the court and if not, i certainly thinking of making a complaint, there was no need to be so aggressive with me and act in that mannor, but then again i do understand as im sure he has come across some people who would put up a fight, and he also may of been having a bad day, just like myself, causing me to act so innapropriately while riding, well not that innapropriate, but just a tad. it has definately made me thinkb4 i act!
jobo
Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 14:15
christ dont make excusis for him.
If they intend to prosicute they will claim that a verbal NIP was given at the time.
it can take upto 6 months to lay the summons so you may not hear anything for quite a long while
If you intend to complain do so now, not when the summons turns up
JAMESVFR205
Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 15:12
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 15:15)
christ dont make excusis for him.
If they intend to prosicute they will claim that a verbal NIP was given at the time.
it can take upto 6 months to lay the summons so you may not hear anything for quite a long while
If you intend to complain do so now, not when the summons turns up
I do understand, but im speaking from a view were i have not been done for anything yet..... if after the 14 days i phone up and see if anything is being processed through the court then im definately going to compalin as much as possible. Im really hoping nothing will happen, its his word against mine, and i was perfectly legal, would he go to all that trouble to screw me with no eveidence except a statement?????
jobo
Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 15:20
sorry mate but i think youve got hold of the wrong end of the stick
If they NIPed you at the time and since you were arrested it hard to argue that they didnt say something like that to you and even if they didnt they will say they did
then 14 days has nothing to do with it . they have 6 months to sort the summons 7 or 8 months to serve it on you
then if you complain it looks like you have only done so coz you have been summons
Zed Victor One
Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 21:21
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 16:20)
sorry mate but i think youve got hold of the wrong end of the stick
If they NIPed you at the time and since you were arrested it hard to argue that they didnt say something like that to you and even if they didnt they will say they did
then 14 days has nothing to do with it . they have 6 months to sort the summons 7 or 8 months to serve it on you
then if you complain it looks like you have only done so coz you have been summons
You appear to have understood that you were cautioned so therefore I assume that you would know if you had been given a verbal NIP, to the best of my knowledge the two are entirely seperate and simply cautioning someone cannot be interpreted as also giving an NIP. Clearly in the circumstances you've described should any further come of this then the magistrates would have to decide which of you they believed, and it's not guaranteed to be the police contrary to popular belief.
Irrespective of whether you committed an offence it still does not justify the manner in which you say you were treated and I would treat this as a seperate issue. As jobo said don't make excuses for them, I'm sure they wouldn't if the shoe was on the other foot. Only you can decide if your prepared to be treated in such a manner?
JAMESVFR205
Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 21:58
QUOTE (Zed Victor One @ Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 22:21)
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 22 Apr 2008 - 16:20)
sorry mate but i think youve got hold of the wrong end of the stick
If they NIPed you at the time and since you were arrested it hard to argue that they didnt say something like that to you and even if they didnt they will say they did
then 14 days has nothing to do with it . they have 6 months to sort the summons 7 or 8 months to serve it on you
then if you complain it looks like you have only done so coz you have been summons
You appear to have understood that you were cautioned so therefore I assume that you would know if you had been given a verbal NIP, to the best of my knowledge the two are entirely seperate and simply cautioning someone cannot be interpreted as also giving an NIP. Clearly in the circumstances you've described should any further come of this then the magistrates would have to decide which of you they believed, and it's not guaranteed to be the police contrary to popular belief.
Irrespective of whether you committed an offence it still does not justify the manner in which you say you were treated and I would treat this as a seperate issue. As jobo said don't make excuses for them, I'm sure they wouldn't if the shoe was on the other foot. Only you can decide if your prepared to be treated in such a manner?
well basically im going to the police station to complain next week as im very busy with exams and tests for university to say that i was treated unfairly irrespective of whether or not i get an NIP through the post. I can be certain he did not give me a verbal NIP as im sure he would of made it clear as i didnt resist or anything. He did confirm that i should get somthing through the post.... if he decides to take the matter further and talk to his superior about my so called wreckless driving and invasion? he said it'll give me somthing to think about, which it has, but because i was unfairly treated and quite scared, im just nervous when i see police cars, sounds stupid, but its the truth, they're meant to help, not intimidate and get a power trip!
Thankyou for all your help, just one more question, if i dont get anything through the post i still want absolute closure to whether or not im going to get a summons, or if somthing has been logged about this so called offence with the courts. Do you know, or anyone, that i can contact about this matter or find out about, without actually activating it??? would be a great help, its really bugging me as i cant afford to loose my licence as it means i will not be able to juggle around my busy lifestyle of work and uni
Chas820
Wed, 23 Apr 2008 - 09:15
Do you have a legal department at uni?If so pop along and have a word with them.If you go to make a complaint,take someone with you as a witness(somebody older is better)The police person on the desk will almost certainly try to talk you out of registering a complaint.Reading your story it seems to me that the officer went way over the top for a motoring offence(alleged)if he had done that to me i would have beaten him back to the nick to lay a complaint.
chrisR33
Wed, 23 Apr 2008 - 18:26
Maybe someone can clarify but I am sure I remember reading in part of the Road traffic act that a prosecution can not be brought on the witness evidence of one person only - there has to be something to colloborate it i.e. another witness, video, etc. None of this applies in your case so they cant do you for speeding.
Best wait to someone confirms that though.
jobo
Wed, 23 Apr 2008 - 18:36
speeding would be difficult with out another witness or a callibrated speedo
but they could have ago at due care ect
dragonheart
Thu, 24 Apr 2008 - 12:22
Hmmm, failing to stop for police IS something that you would be arrested for but if you did actually stop at any point for him then it is completely negated. The fact that he dearrested you is quite a good indication that he was just trying to intimidate you.
Nowadays dearresting prisoners is frowned on by many forces and many do not permit officers to do so without taking the prisoner to the station first. That and the fact he swore at you and tried to intimidate you is excellent cause for an official complaint.
Sounds like he was just an arrogant twat who was out for a power trip. Most non traffic officers dont know the first thing about doing a prosecution for speeding and plus if he was on his own so I wouldnt worry too much unless you hear from them again.
JAMESVFR205
Thu, 24 Apr 2008 - 13:40
QUOTE (dragonheart @ Thu, 24 Apr 2008 - 13:22)
Hmmm, failing to stop for police IS something that you would be arrested for but if you did actually stop at any point for him then it is completely negated. The fact that he dearrested you is quite a good indication that he was just trying to intimidate you.
Nowadays dearresting prisoners is frowned on by many forces and many do not permit officers to do so without taking the prisoner to the station first. That and the fact he swore at you and tried to intimidate you is excellent cause for an official complaint.
Sounds like he was just an arrogant twat who was out for a power trip. Most non traffic officers dont know the first thing about doing a prosecution for speeding and plus if he was on his own so I wouldnt worry too much unless you hear from them again.
Thanks for the information guys, tomorrow will be the 14th day so, ill give it till monday until i can be less worried! Im certainly going to make a complaint, i really do hate it that some people who join the police force abuse their power of authority and get serious power trips just because they think they have control. My next step will be to find out if anything about my 'alledged' offence has gone through the courts so i can then take the matter further, although im still going to make a complaint regardless!