Hi guys its me again..(3 yrs on . )

Can u help out .

Info..
October 18th 2007. - Leicester , inner ring rd--- mostly all 40mph. some shorts zones of 30...
Case---we ( dad and I ) were zapped by fixed gatzo on a 30 stretch doing 41mph.

got Nip 1 = replied - 2 drivers dont know who was driving.(supplied both our details).
got Notice 2 = sent letter again as above ..
got Notice 3 ofering another special chance to save our skin and name THE driver...''for them''... replied again new letter stating time/memory,only 1 small sign at the camera, and of course --both possible drivers full details .again.


Today 8th-april-08 got court summonds date on 28th at 9:30 to see magistrates...

stating.
1- speeding- 41 in a 30..... and saying the stretch in question has street lights closer that 200yrds.
2- the Keeper has Failed to give such information as to the identity of the driver of the alleged offence..


My argument:
time- cant remember who was driving- we both commute from Lincoln every day to work.. and all the time swap drivers.
Zove- all of the ring rd has Lighting- its all over the place.... only one small sign near the camera of 30'

And its clear ---- we were not some baseball capped maniac blasting through town..... as it is reasonble to assume that inside the car -- as far as we were concerned , we were just going around the inner ring road, at a steady 40 mph.. and being good and safe drivers.... watching the traffic... not counting the street lights,, or trying to measure their distance's


QUESTION... any advice and what do we do now ....???????

dual charging...
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2008/209.html

how much diligence can you show for the S172 ?

What else did you check (relevant or not) in trying to ID the driver, did you talk to wrk colleagues to ask if anyone remembered who drove that day, what did you tell them beyond the two names (like listing any of the above!)?

Simon

well the cars my dads,

we get to leciester usualy at 7:30 to 7:45 my office mainly starts at 8:45 so most are not around...
so didnt ask work coleges, or when i drop him its roughly the same, 7:45 - 8;15 ish..

did ask my mother,, she's retired, and , sees us of most days ,,, and she cant remeber,,,

i keep a diary,, but it just says we went together to leicester as usual..

only told them that we asked mum and checked our diaries,asked workmates but no one remebers anything.,

the problem here is that the police and magistrates have heard every excuse under the sun (not saying this includes you) so are sceptical, I think you need to prove your innocence rather than they prove your guilt. I understand that we dont keep detailed records as members of the general public but only realise how vunerable we are once we get summons by the courts.

What happened to being innocent until proven guilty eh?

You say you replied to the 1st NIP with both your names as you cannot remember. This should mean that they cannat have you for not failing to disclose. Might be worth filling out the NIP wizard. Did u ask for the photos from the gatso? The law states you must show "due dilligence" to assertain who the driver was. The problem is, "due dilligence" is not defined. If you can show the mags that you have made a reasonable effort to identify the driver but have been unable to do so, they will not find you guilty. Usually, a paper trail of some sort helps. Furthermore, this is one of the scaremongering tactics that the CPS will use. Many times, they will drop the case on the day of the hearing when they realise that you're not going to back down.

The test for credability for S172 is really balance of probabilities, they cannot prove you guilty (in most cases) nor can you prove your innocence, so therefore the only test can be balance of probabilities, that's only sensible, given the requirements of that piece of legislation, one huge piece in that balance is credability, almost anything a defendant can claim to have done will be rendered to naught if he's not believed, and vice versa...

You have to go to court, take anything and everything you can (mobile bills card reciepts, bank statements etc) that don't show who was driving, but MAY have, so would have been checked....if you can get your DoMum in as witness, even if its to say she doesn't remember, it all helps.....

Simon

Simon

Ok , thanks guys,,

I have already prepared a statement letter,, fairly breif,,, to read out to them..
( so i dont say the wrong thing, or forget anything...

and i will definatly check our phone records, to make it clear that on the day no one was on the phone in the car ,, re driver,
also my mum is a pain over this stuff,, she just keeps shouting just fill in the form and sent it, dont argue with the police,,, so i know she wont come to the court with us , but i could get her to sign a statement and take it with us,, plus my diary,, showing we were both working that day,,

im hoping to come across as two decent people just going to work as usual, every day,, around the inner ring rd , at 40mph, and possibly by mistake missed the 30mph sign/zone,, and just carried on . at what the speedo showed to be 40. bang on..

even if by magic we sudenly can may be remeber who was driving... there is still only one way they can proove that,, and thats if we give in and put a rope around our own knek ...

is there any point in sending my letter to the cheif cop scammer himself first,,, and let him know im going to fight him all the way.....

Your Mum would be a good witness, you really need to try and get here there, all she has to attest to is that you both drive regualrily, and despite you asking as soon as you got the NIP, she couldn't remember who was driving.

If you can at any point determine who was driving, you MUST then tell the scammers, as long as you can show you could not provide the name within the 28 days but now can do so and provided that name as soon as it was possible to do so, you are still 'legal'.

Simon

HI THANKS ..

I SUPPOSE THAT MEANS WE STILL GET THE TICKET N POINTS , BUT NOT AS LARGER PUNISHMENT...AS WE SHowed we made an effort.

my mum is a pain ... she always gives in ( she's paid 4 parking tickets in the last 20yrs. without contesting one. so , she wont come .
but thanks anyway..

Please calrify what you mean...your Mum is not essential to the defence 9but would be handy) if you are not guilty of an offence, then don't just accept the punishment!

For evil to triumph, it requires only that good men do nothing!

Simon

Ok , thanks for that .guys.

we are in court Next Monday at 9:30. ...

I have prepared a statement to read out .
from me and my farther , stating our efforts,..
and was not intending to say or comment on any thing else at all.

I have .. mobile phone bills form us both ...showing no one was on the phone. .
and my diary showing that we went to work together that day, ( and the previous 2yrs of days too)
days ago
I-have a signed letter from my disabled mother.who sees us off every day with sandwiches and keys..and waves to us as we drive off. ( stating that she simply cannot recall such a thing as who was driving on a day that was no different from any other, and was 155 days ago.

A map of the whole inner ring road showing the regular daily trip we have done some 2,270 trips in over 10 years of working in Leicester. ( from my diaries.& calender)

any last suggestions chaps ....1 wk' to go'

At the first hearing you will plead, plead not guilty (by post) and it will be adjourned and a trial date set....so don't go expecting a trail on your first appearance! Before that trial compile a compliant defence statement and send in the statements (as complaint sect9 statements) from the three of you.

Simon

Hi..
ok it is thursady today , i will write a letter to the court pleading not guilty, ..re; me , dad ,.. post it tonight it will get ther saturday morning...
or i can drop it in by hand as they are just down the rd from work..then prepare a statement from the three of us ... but what to say ?
...
do i fill in their form to plead not guilty...i'm not sure there was one in the pack they sent me...( it had stuff about their witnesses,cam certificates,calibrations...etc- etc-etc... you know the usual crap to try to frighten a decent hounest person .into submission...

I thought just a simple signed note , to say not guilty.

many thanks guys..........
ss............

Hi

sent in 'NOT guilty plea' on thursday. ... my magistrates court date is today....the 28th april.

I just wondered... from Oct 18th it is a 10 days over 6 months has this thing timed out by any chance....

No. The 6 month rule refers to the limitation of time for commencement of proceedings, not to when the case must be heard before the magistrates.

In England and Wales, proceedings are commenced by the laying of an information (an application for summons) at the magistrates' court. So long as the information is laid within 6 calendar months of an alleged offence, then it is legitimate for the summons to be issued and served on the defendant beyond this 6 month period. The case must be brought before the court within 3 years of the alleged offence.

Hi , thanks ,
I have prepared the information-dairies,letters,, and maps, ect, but can't find an example of a section 9 complaint form on here.

does anyone know what , and how to do a correct section 9 complaint...

thanks
ss.............

http://www.justice.gov.uk/criminal/procrul...df/f37page1.pdf

Hi
ok''I read the sec 9 form , and think i will put down the thoughts of my dad & I,, plus my mums statement on it stating the things we can rember, and not remember,, and then send it in as soon as possible,, before the letter of the next court date appears...
any thoughts guys...

thanks
ss.................

My one word of advice is this. Do not rely on the theory of "Innocent until proven guilty". We have all been brought up to think that this is the bedrock of the British Justice system. Actually, it isnt. I was charged under 172 and defended on the basis of 172(4). The fact is, they could not prove it was me driving. I was still found guilty and got 6 points. They simply didnt believe me. As a point of law, they were wrong. When they asked me if I had anything to say, after sentencing, I reiterated the point above and said that as far as I could see their verdict was based on guesswork rather than fact. But proving your case is not cheap. I cant afford the financial risk of appeall, so I have had to accept 6 points, that I definately do not deserve. The bit that really gets me is the fact that when you are up in a magistrates court, the verdict is at the hands of amatuers. Im sure that there are magistrates that are very well meaning and socially minded upstanding characters, but many unfortunately are people that simply seek the position because they desire the recognition. But actually, if you ever came across them in your business life you would recognise them as lightweights. Your future/livelehood is in the hands of such people. It is a major flaw in the british legal system. I am pretty sure that a crown court judge would understamnd the legal points of my case. Trouble is, I cant afford the financial risk of geting in front of him or her.

what caught you out, was it a static gatso or a mobile unit?

Not sure I understand your point, they don't have to prove you or anyone else was driving for you to be guilty of the S172 offence, they merely have to prove you did not name the driver, you then have to prove (balance of probabilities) that you could not with reasonable dilliegnce have ID'd that driver.

Simon

Hi
I got a confusing letter last friday..

I dont know if i'm supposed to go or not ...
it says...


You are hereby given notice that the hearing of your case was adjourned untill 9:30 on the 2nd day of JUne 2008

Your case will be heard at the above cour.

You need not attend on this occasion as you will be notified of the trial date but you should inform the court of any dates in the next three months that Either you or your witnesses can not attend.


NB any correspondence should be addressed to me , the Clerk to the Justases at ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Leicester...


'' and thats all it says ...


so any advise on what i'm supposed to do ..

thanks

ss......

Attend and defend yourself....as has already been advised, relvant witnesses, having served their S9 statemenst in advance (to court, copied to CPS).

Simon

Ok thanks

But is this the date 2nd june 9 30 that i must attend... as it says not too.. that you will be notified of the trial; date ..

so di i nedd to go to this 2nd june one ... is it the full proper hearing for a judgement?

ss....................

Sorry my BAD, sounds like its a review hearing, so then your waiting for the actual trial date, if there is any material you need from the prosecution (I can't see there is) then that is the time to ask for it.

I assume copies of all communictaions you sent to the scammers is in the evidnece bundle?

Simon

Hi
well . we got another trial date.. from our hearing , and we go on Wed July the 23rd .to show that we can't remember which of the two of us was driving...
I Live with my dad and Mum , in our very Large house... and dad and I travel everywhere together,,, including our daily commute to Leicester.. for both of our jobs there.. I still and always have kept my personal diary , showing things we do... and have photos of our car, and its built in hands free phone system , plus our Dash Sat Nav with camera alerts.. also our phone bills with neither of us on the phone at the time... ( even though it would make no differance )

Can I just say thanks to everyone on here for their help and support, what ever the outcome .. and is'nt it a shame ;; ;; decent people on here , The true innocent and those who make one error. or a moments lack of attention... and we're suddenly fighting like criminals on the run from the law.. when just yesterday that youth who murdered (shot) that lady dead by accident. missing his actual target... has now got LIFE.. but the court said he will serve at least 20 years ,,, which we all know means 1/2 for good behaivour as usual.. ( when GB should be the rule anyway.) then actually somewhere about 15......to save our weak & useless government money' . When to me life means- until ''death''... He should rot there............. The womans young children have got a real life sentance of broken hearts and life without their mum...

''Rights are for those who fight for them ! but
Justice is for those who can afford it!..''

Hi
yes they have copies of all the letters and , the standard three of the five nip reply letters. i got from that chap on your Link 'how to save your driving licence' i think.
they also have the letters i wrote stating the reasons why we cant remeber, and how we intend to show this . the Nip its self I sent back unsigned with these letters.
I still have copies of the photo of the car--- from the back. doing 41mph in the 30.. which we thought was 40. as it is on the rest of the ring road.
I think it was just a moments lack of concentration and we must have missed the 30 sign..... which is the only 1,,, and is just before the camera.

I also can't think of anything else i can ask to see from them ... ( i've not seen the calibration certificate) but i think they send it now as standard.
anyway
nothing left to do but state our points and wait ..
I think we may have a chance,, thats why i've come this far in the fight .

thanks
ss.......

Hmmm first mention you used stock letters off the internet, that may not help your case as it may harm your credability, still nothing else you can do now really!

Just need to turn up on the day with credable witmesses, and hope for the best!

Simon

SUCCESS SUCCESS !!!!!!!!!! YIPPIE

WE WON ..... OR ........THEY LOST

not sure which..
as I thought it would be -''no case to answer''

UPDATE: . We went to court on the 30thJuly..at 2pm . and we both stood there at the desk facing 3 of them..they had our statements that we sent the police, in front of them..and a Cop in uniform outside waiting to be a witness.( I know coz while they questioned my dad,,I waited outside , and the clerk came out and told him to go..)
I knew we had lots of stuff... pics of our car with its built-in car phone system... our phone bills to show no one was on the phone , the pics i took of the actual road showing only one small sign 80yrds from the Scamera'' , my personal Diary showing that we travel together evey day , and share the driving...

and copies of the letters and nips our letters stating the 2 possible drivers...and letters showing that we did not recieve the 1st nip , only the 2nd one some 6 weeks after the Scam...
the Magistrates (3) looked at the evidence , and kept askking directly why we could not remeber who was driving , and re rreading the notes in front of them . it was not short..... they went on for half an hour... probing and asking was there anything that we could remeber that may help..
we said no sorry.
and
for item 1-- car speeding over 30... I dont know what they wrote down.
2-- Failure to supply the drivers name.. ..... they had two ..
result was NOT GUILTY.......
and we both left......

I felt sure we could win.
but truth is the Whole thing was very time eating, worrying and very stressfull, my dad who's fit strong and still working at 75' found it all too much . saying 'just fill it in' ... & says the next one he'll just sign and send in. which I think is a shame...

If enough of us keep winning these stupid costly,time wasting cases, with more and more magistrates getting bogged down with them, maybe some day like the 'Berlin Wall' the Scameras will come down..

I had Family & people at work say 'Ooh you were Lucky'.& 'Why take on the police and the law' ... -- To which i Said to them all ;
'' LOOK m8ty... If it was'nt for people like ME, standing up to the law through History.. people like YOU would not have the freedom & rights you do have, & you would now be living in a Police State 100x worse than the one we are in.'' so put up or shut up'


Final comments.....

well........ what can I say....

we need to wear them down day by day.........we felt very very good leaving the court house , talking loudly as we left saying 'not guilty...HA..'

Its taken 9 months of carrying worry & Stress.... if you think you can carry it with you for nearly a whole year then keep up the fight.. it is worth it ...


yours...
SS.....

Well done, do not forget to claim costs (you should have asked the mags on the day).

Well done..

Really well done for persevering. Unless I've misunderstood your synopsis of the Court events, it sounds like they were still trying to dual charge despite Mr Hatton's recent Judgement that they cannot bring the speeding charge without knowing who the driver was!

Hopefully the people in the know will now post and advise you on what costs you can submit to the Court

Again, well done

Carl

You can claim for all your actual expenses, but you can't claim for your preparation time. It would seem that youi can claim for lost earnings, if you had to take unpaid time off work.