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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
davemdavem
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2008
Date of the NIP: - 38 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 40 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A23 approaching Broxmead Lane overbridge, Bolney
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - It was the vehicle allocated to me by the company for my work that day.
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 12:54:32 +0000
davemdavem
I had problems with the comments on the NIP wizard so below is what I wanted to include with the NIP wizard.

My first posting and, although this may be a bit lengthy, hopefully I'll get some ideas on how best to resolve this.

As previously stated, I work as a private hire driver for a company with its HQ in Luton.

On the day in question, I was allocated a Ford Tourneo which is akin to 'white van man' but with windows all round and 7 passenger seats.

Like many other days, there was on the bridge a big police van with a camera photographing southbound traffic and a policeman stood at the side of it.

At this point, the A23 has 3-lanes both sides and national speed limits are in force.

I had 1 passenger who I was taking to Burgess Hill and was 'caught' doing 69mph !

This is where it gets interesting.

The vehicle was a loan vehicle from Ford who, somehow, had registered it as a Private Light Goods van instead of a MPV.

The speed limit for a PLG is 60mph on dual carriageways hence the ticket.

I regularly travel this route with passengers using either a Tourneo or a Mercedes Viano (a MPV with 7 seats and windows, very similar to the Tourneo).

The Viano's are owned by my company and are registered as MPVs and the speed limit for these on dual carriageways is 70mph.

So, unbeknown to me, as far as I was aware, I was driving a MPV with a 70mph max.

(Before we take a vehicle out, we have to complete a roadworthiness form - a requirement I believe by Luton council - which checks oil, water, tyres, lights. There is no check for Road Tax or whther the vehicle has a Private Hire Vehicle licence.)

It has also come to light that the vehicle did not have a Private Hire Vehicle licence.

Yes, i know, ... what was the company's Fleet Manager doing ?? .. answer seems to be : negligence, incompetence or whatever !!

So, summing up, I thought I was driving a fully insured, fully licenced MPV within the speed limit when in fact I was driving a Private Light Goods vehicle, carrying a passenger for reward, with no Private hire vehicle licence and, presumably, no insurance either.

I do have a valid Private Hire Licence issued by Luton council.

Therefore, ... what's my best line of defence ?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Dave.
davemdavem
I forgot to mention, the original NIP was sent to Ford who actually own the vehicle and my company has it on loan.

Ford received their NIP around the 25th Feb and I found out on the 4th March.

Dave.
cabbyman
With regard to the PHV licence: Is the vehicle fitted with a PHV licence plate and, if so, is the plate of the type that has the licence expiry date and the VRN shown?
davemdavem
Hi, cabbyman.

No plate - none of the loan vehicles were 'plated'.

All the loan vehicles, including the one I was driving, and all the new cars are currently off the road until they have got a PH vehicle licence .. ie a plate.

It seems that the insurance company regard this as a 'grey area' .. and having worked for an insurance company in the past, I know what this means exactly .. any accidents = no cover !

Dave.


Dave.
The Rookie
Many vehicles are PLG, all passenger cars and MPV's are PLG, as are light goods vehicles that may be subject to the lower limits for light commercials such as the 2 seater connects.

What I think may be the case is it should be registered as a 'dual purpose vehicle' or passnger carrier (such as a minibus).


Simon
davemdavem
The vehicle in question was registered as a goods van, around last Sept, and the tax disc has PLG written on it. The amount paid was either £165 or £185 (can't remember which) whereas the Vianos which are the equivalent from Mercedes have a tax disc which do not have PLG written on it and cost £205.

The big question is, though, what is my best line of defence in trying to avoid getting hit with the 3 points on my licence ?

Dave.
The Rookie
I don't know why the Viano tax disc doesn't have PLG on it as all three of my cars discs do....as they are the 'private' part of 'private/light goods'.

To avoid being penalised you will have to show (not sure how as this is where my expertise falls over) that it is not a light commercial vehicle but a 'car' (legally as minibuses have the same lower limits as commercials), I can't remember the definition for minibus v car.

Simon

davemdavem
My intention is to take the vehicle to the court and invite the magistrate(s) to examine it to see if they consider it a goods van rather than a MPV.

Very few of us have a licence to drive a minibus - we are limited to a max of 8 passengers.

And MPVs are allowed to do 70 on dual carriageways.

My company say they are going to fight this but the danger as far as I can see is that the speeding charge may be dropped but then I could get hit with driving a vehicle for hire/reward with no vehicle private hire licence and no insurance !

It's going to be an interesting period and I still feel that it may end in 'tears' for me and the consequences of getting the points etc.

Dave.
cabbyman
I hate to sound defeatist on this but, if you are in line for a FPN for speeding, then IMHO, take the hit.

If you go to court and the PHV licensing issue comes up, no insurance could be an even greater worry, as you rightly surmise. You may find that will have implications for your badge renewal because not having a licence or H&R insurance in this trade is virtually a hanging offence, as you will no doubt agree.

Hopefully, I'm totally wrong and those more knowledgeable than I will give you all you need to know.
slushpuppy
Hi

Most private cars (if not all) are registered as PLG. This is just a taxation class and not relevent to speed limits
It does not matter what it is registered as with the DVLA or what its taxation class is. Don't be too hasty to pay up.
What counts is what it actually is.
If it is a goods vehicle (constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods or burden) under 7.5t Gross vehicle weight it is restricted to 60mph on a dual cariageway (not motorway) and 69 is in excess of its limit (constucted to
From your description it appears to be a passenger vehicle with 8 sets or less (including the driver) rather than a goods vehicle and therefore is restricted to 70mph (dependent on unladen weight) on a DC (and MW)
It is likely that the partnership have seen it registered as PLG or goods or panel van and their image may suggest that but if it is a 7 seater it is likely to have been mis-identified

I would recommend ringing AND writing to the Partnership involved pointing out that it is a passenger vehicle and not a goods vehicle. They will need to know the unladen weight. I cant remember the crucial weight but it is some thing like 3040kg and your vehicle will be well under that. It might help to send pictures of the interior. Providing the actual spec falls within that of a passenger vehicle under the crucial weight and with less than 8 passenger seats it is likely that the Partnership will cancel the notice.

Good Luck
davemdavem
Hi.

Just a quick update on this.

I've been in touch with the partnership and have sent them pics of the vehicle clearly showing the windows and the seats.

I've also sent them copies of letters from Ford stating that my company has permission to use the vehicle as a MPV only and that the vehicle was currently being re-registered as it had been originally registered incorrectly as a goods van.

Now to wait to see if the partnership accept the evidence so far and cancel the ticket.

As the saying goes ... watch this space.

Dave.
davemdavem
Well ... so the saga continues a bit longer !!

Got this reply today ...

"Please be advised, the fact that the vehicle has seats in the rear has no bearing on the vehicles speed restriction. The highway code states that coaches or minibuses's not in excess of 12 metres long are restricted to 60mph on a dual carriageway. MPV's derived from a van chassis can be grouped with these vehicles. Only cars are allowed to travel at 70mph on a dual carriageway and as such the notice remains valid."


Keep watching for the next instalment ... and when I get time over the weekend I'll check the highway code because the reply does just not sound correct - especially the bit that only cars are allowed to travel at 70mph on a dual carriageway!!

Dave.
slushpuppy
Road traffic Regulation Act 1984
sec 136(2) In this Act “motor car" means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor cycle or an invalid carriage, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and of which the weight unladen—
(a) if it is constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects, is adapted to carry not more than 7 passengers exclusive of the driver, and is fitted with tyres of such type as may be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, does not exceed 3050 kilograms.

Sched 6 of the Act states
A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3·05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:
if not exceeding 12 metres in overall length - Mway 70 DC 60 other 50

I think that the partnership are still confused (wrong) as to the classification of your vehicle.
Can you confirm the total number of seats (including the driver) and its unladen weight (ULW)?

I would maintain that your vehicle is a motorcar (providing ulw and seat numbers are as above) and is restricted to 70mph on a DC.
From your description it does not appear to be a minibus or coach but a MPV/passenger vehile/motorcar.

You need to be able to prove that it is constructed or adapted soley for the carriage of 7 passengers or less together with their effects and is less than 3050kg ULW.
Knowingly or not the partnership seem to be assuming that your vehicle has more than 7 passenger seats or is more than 3050kg ULW or both.


Personally I would try again with the partnership to try and avoid court. (Quote legislation etc)
If you’re happy with the court course of action perhaps others on this site can check my thoughts and if correct, with evidence as suggested above re vehicle spec (photos re seats and handbook/V5/official spec sheet re ULW), you should be successful.

Good Luck
davemdavem
Hi, slushpuppy.

The vehicle I was driving has 8 seats - 1 driver, 7 passenger.

(I don't want to confuse anything but another loan vehicle we have from Ford has 9 seats, 1 driver, 8 passenger still a ford tourneo but let's ignore that at this point in time).

I think the reason that the notice is still valid is that one of the letters from ford referred to the vehicle as being a minibus rather than a mpv.

The vehicle is actually a Transit Tourneo 280S 2.2 TDCi (taken from the other letter from Ford) and it seems to be well inside the ulw with a gross mass of 2800kgs (kerb mass being about 1930kgs).

(I used this h**p://www.ford.co.uk/ns7/tourneo/trn_specs/trn_specifications/-/-/-/-# and the associated pdf thereon to get the weights.)

My 'helpful' son found this : http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/speed...dknowyourlimits

and about half way down is a table of vehicles/speed limits.

It looks as if the end result of all this will come down to whether the vehicle is, for all intents and purposes, a car or not .. based on the groupings in that table.

My head is beginning to spin a bit with this so I'm going to leave it to my people to come up with their next line of defence.

I'll keep you posted.

And thanks for your help.

Dave.

The Rookie
So a minibus with a 60 limit on a DC then as it has 8 apssenger seats (the driver is also a passnger).

Simon
davemdavem
@simon.

Not a minibus which seems to be a vehicle with more than 8 passenger seats (not including the driver).

My PHL allows me to drive vehicles up to 8 passengers.

This going to come down to the vehicles construction and usage and according to this site :

h**p://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/dcsc/educadvi/spedlimi.htm#detailed


the vehicle I was driving is simply a passenger vehicle with less than 9 passenger seats.

Keep watching - should have more news today or tomorrow.

Dave.
The Rookie
QUOTE (slushpuppy @ Fri, 18 Apr 2008 - 22:44) *
Road traffic Regulation Act 1984
sec 136(2) In this Act “motor car" means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motor cycle or an invalid carriage, which is constructed itself to carry a load or passengers and of which the weight unladen—
(a) if it is constructed solely for the carriage of passengers and their effects, is adapted to carry not more than 7 passengers exclusive of the driver, and is fitted with tyres of such type as may be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, does not exceed 3050 kilograms.

Sched 6 of the Act states
A passenger vehicle, motor caravan or dual-purpose vehicle not drawing a trailer being a vehicle with an unladen weight exceeding 3·05 tonnes or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers:
if not exceeding 12 metres in overall length - Mway 70 DC 60 other 50


Sorry yes, you appear to be correct, misread that...

Simon
davemdavem
And so the saga comes to an end ... a RESULT as far as I'm concerned .. the ticket has been cancelled.

Following more research last weekend and discovering this article :

h**p://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/dcsc/educadvi/spedlimi.htm and checking the 'detailed' section, this helped me to construct the following email which I sent last Monday.

The vehicle :
1. was a passenger vehicle
2. had 1 driver and 7 passenger seats
3. had an unladen weight of less than 3050kgs
4. did not have a trailer

and as such, under Section 86 (1) and Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 restrict the vehicle to a maximum of 70mph on a dual carriageway.

Today, I got the following extract via snail mail reply :

"Please be advised, on checking the details of your vehicle it appears that an error has been made in the issue of this notice. The vehicle in question does not qualify for a Class of Vehicle restriction and as a result the notice has been cancelled with immediate effect.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience this notice may have caused. "

So .. I'd just like to say thanks to everybody for giving me the confidence to fight the ticket and keep up the good work.

Regards,

Dave.
slushpuppy
Well done

I suspect that with the limited information available to the partnership ie DVLA/PNC and their photo they were not intially able to classify your vehicle and made a mistake/misjudgement. Especially as you say other Torneos have more seats.

However once you had sent your first letter with photos etc they should have sorted it at that point.

Anyway perserverence appears to have prevailed and avoided potentially expensive and time wasting journeys to court.

SP

Zed Victor One
QUOTE (davemdavem @ Fri, 25 Apr 2008 - 11:43) *
And so the saga comes to an end ... a RESULT as far as I'm concerned .. the ticket has been cancelled.

Following more research last weekend and discovering this article :

h**p://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/dcsc/educadvi/spedlimi.htm and checking the 'detailed' section, this helped me to construct the following email which I sent last Monday.

The vehicle :
1. was a passenger vehicle
2. had 1 driver and 7 passenger seats
3. had an unladen weight of less than 3050kgs
4. did not have a trailer

and as such, under Section 86 (1) and Schedule 6 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 restrict the vehicle to a maximum of 70mph on a dual carriageway.

Today, I got the following extract via snail mail reply :

"Please be advised, on checking the details of your vehicle it appears that an error has been made in the issue of this notice. The vehicle in question does not qualify for a Class of Vehicle restriction and as a result the notice has been cancelled with immediate effect.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any inconvenience this notice may have caused. "

So .. I'd just like to say thanks to everybody for giving me the confidence to fight the ticket and keep up the good work.

Regards,

Dave.


Good to hear that justice has been done, even if was only due to your own perseverence, just a shame they didn't pick up on it themselves and save you the hassle, but at least it came good in the end.
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