Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Newbie in need of HELP Please!!!!!
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Pages: 1, 2
Speedy Gonzales
Hi all, i have been advised to come over here from a 'Owners Club' as i think im in big big trouble.

Right here goes, you will have to bear with me as im not up on all the jargon etc.

I am a named driver on the GF's car and on the 14th August 2004 i was caught speeding on the A14.
105MPH in a 70MPH limit. It was a glorious sunny day if that matters

Now is where the problem starts.

I passed my driving test on the 20th August 2002 so i was just 6 days away from gaining my full license and not being on my probationary period, now its gets worse too, i already have 3 points for speeding (was on work business) in a temporary reduced speed limit on the M6 8 months ago.
I need my license for work as i work for the MOD and am travelling between RAF sites most days and im almost certainly gonna lose my job as it was a requirement when i took the job to have a license. Also i have only just (7 weeks ago) bought my 1st house with the GF so i cannot afford to lose my license.

i know i should of been more careful and i should take respocibility for my actions but i stand to lose so much i cant just "take it on the chin" like has been suggested to me already.

The GF got a form throu the post telling her of the said offence and has asked for the drivers details.

What should we (I) do?

Oh and the GF has been to look at the picture and it is clearly me and not her as she is sat in the passenger seat.

Thanks for your help in advance

SG
firefly
Hi Speedy, ( icon_eek.gif )

First things first :

QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
on the 14th August 2004 i was caught speeding on the A14

What is the date on the NIP? That is, when was it issued? You say you were "caught" on the 14th August so I assume this means the date of the alleged offence.

QUOTE
The GF got a form throu the post telling her of the said offence and has asked for the drivers details.
What did she do with this form (NIP)? Has she done anything?

QUOTE
Oh and the GF has been to look at the picture and it is clearly me and not her as she is sat in the passenger seat.

Why did she do this?
Speedy Gonzales
Hi Firely, thanks for the speedy responce.

Im sure the NIP date is the 14th August but i will find out for sure when i get home.

We have still got the NIP form, she is waiting to see what i want to do about it.

To be honest i dont know why she went to look at the pic, she was going to say it was her driving as she has a clean license and is allowed the full 12 points, but she wanted to know if she could get away with it.
firefly
Hi Speedy,

Some dates you should post when you get home :

1 The date of the alleged offence
2 The date the NIP was issued
3 The date you received the NIP
4 If the envelope was kept that held the NIP, what postage amount was on it?
5 The date your girlfriend went in to see the pictures

Once we have all these dates, we can see if there is a defence there. There are other defences of course, but your girlfriend was not wise going in to view the pictures to see if she could "get away with it" I'm afraid. With all the commitments you now have, it would have been "sweet" of your girlfriend to take the rap for you in this instance. No use crying over spilt milk now though.......Where there's a will, there's a way.
Speedy Gonzales
Hi Mika, sorry to be dumb but what has the type of camera gotta do with the price of fish :? ?

The car will go just shy of 150MPH
Speedy Gonzales
Cheers for that firefly, i will get the details as soon as i gt home.

Mika: Was you talking about that guy who got caught doing 115MPH then had his car tested and proved that it didnt do anywhere near the claimed speeds?
Mika
Hi,

They would appear to a bit shy about handing out LTi 20-20 traffic videos.

Non-disclosure of evidence, could mean no case to answer. icon_idea.gif
Speedy Gonzales
Here is what the Mrs says firefly:

yep I have it on me
the date of the offence was the 14th August
the date on the NIP is 19th August
the date it arrived, I picked it up from mum & dads on 26th August, but
would guess it could have arrived anytime from 24th onwards (working on
the basis dad would have brought it round and I don't think he came
round after the tues.
the envelope was a pre-printed envelope with "this is not a circular"
written on it & tear strips down the side, I don't know what the postage
was.
I went to see the pic on 31st Aug ( sorry babes, if it was wrong I
didn't realise it would do any harm)

Mika: They wouldnt send us the picture, the Mrs had to go and view it.
Speedy Gonzales
55 views and only 2 people can be bothered to reply icon_cry.gif
Thanks guys
firefly
Hi Speedy,

Don't have time at present, but if you hold on 'til later tonight (9ish) I will post on your available options. Unless someone fancies telling Speedy the merits of the PACE Witness Statement. icon_wink.gif
Patch
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
55 views and only 2 people can be bothered to reply icon_cry.gif  
Thanks guys


Speedy you are ghetting your advice from one of the best here, there is many of us who are learners at dealing with the system just like you.
cjm99
TamaraD wrote:

QUOTE
You could both be up in front of the beaks on a much more serious charge.


I agree totally in principal. However, in a trial for attempt to pervert or purjury, a solid defence would be 'right not to self incriminate. see the three decenting judges reasoning in Wey -v- Austria.
In speedy's case, he would argue he was compelled to lie as his very livelyhood was at stake and 'self incrimination' would have devastating effects on him. biggrin.gif

Chris
Mika
Chris,

I say, you are getting the hang of it.

Now that Australia keep on wining the cricket, where do you think they will deport us? icon_wink.gif
Speedy Gonzales
Thanks alot for your help so far firefly, i am currently reading up on the post but boy, how complecated lol I am trying at least but its not really making any sence, however i am only on the 2nd page so i will keep reading.

I will get the GF to send off the NIP tomorrow and say that i was driving. icon_cry.gif

Thanks again for all your help and time

SG

P.S What will happen if the GF does not declare who was driving and just sits on the NIP? Will she get the 3 points and upto £1000 fine?
Talion
if no NIP has been returned then I assume there is still the option for the GF going for an S172 offence, I know it's view a little more serious than a SP30/50, but versa livleyhood ?

just a thought for everyone to pull to bits !!
Mika
Talion,

Considering the speed in this case, that’s not a bad suggestion but have you considered the following:

1. If they were using an LTi 20-20, what do you think the chances of them disclosing the traffic video are? Perhaps a rhetorical question. rolleyes.gif
2. Ignoring the NIP will almost certainly result in a conviction for an S 172 offence. The right to silence letter will probably end up with the same result but with the possibility of an appeal, pending the outcome of the current action.
3. The PACE witness statement - the chance to go for disclosure of the LTi 20-20 traffic video and the right silence appeal – the double whammy. icon_wink.gif
firefly
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
P.S What will happen if the GF does not declare who was driving and just sits on the NIP? Will she get the 3 points and upto £1000 fine?

She will probably get 3 points and a couple of hundred quid fine. On the other hand, she may never hear from the police again. icon_eek.gif

Given what is at stake, I would take the girlfriend out for a slap up meal and ask nicely if she would throw the NIP in the bin. icon_wink.gif
Mika
ff,

You could be right but I will be surprised if a NIP, for an alleged speed of 105 mph, gets forgotten about.
Talion
Mika,

Can the witness statement be used to send out another NIP to the driver ?

even if they cant what is the chance they will anyway resulting in Speedy having to fight - soemthing he's not in a position to do it seems.

should it be me, with so much to loose, I think i'd be askign the Gf to take the s172 for me.
Speedy Gonzales
hmmmmmmmm.............. some options to ponder here.

What are the chances of the GF having to goto court if she ignores the NIP?
As lovely as she is i would hate to have to put her throu that (knowing full well she is a bad liar) lol.

Oh BTW the GF is almost a senior legal assistant for the county council so they may take it more seriously given her legal position.
Talion
as far as i'm aware your only required to attend court if they are going to ban you.

for s172, unless your at the 9 point/banning stage then you wouldn't normally be required to attend so should be able to plead guilty by post.

if you have some decent type of mitigation then it's worth attending on the off chance they believe you. in this case not sure your mitigation argument would cut anything !
Tamara-D
QUOTE (firefly)
QUOTE (Patch)
Speedy you are ghetting your advice from one of the best here, there is many of us who are learners at dealing with the system just like you.

Tamara might not agree now! icon_wink.gif

I would say you are one of the best firefly, I think the work you have done for the para 4 defence and how to deal with things in Scotland is brilliant. icon_wink.gif

However ...

QUOTE (firefly)
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
P.S What will happen if the GF does not declare who was driving and just sits on the NIP? Will she get the 3 points and upto £1000 fine?

She will probably get 3 points and a couple of hundred quid fine. On the other hand, she may never hear from the police again. icon_eek.gif

Given what is at stake, I would take the girlfriend out for a slap up meal and ask nicely if she would throw the NIP in the bin. icon_wink.gif


The idea of us all being here, unless I have missed something, is to fight against the illegal acts of the scammers, CPS, beaks and government.

Using the Right to Silence argument or the PACE Witness Statement are legal ways that we can defend our freedoms.

Getting someone to take the rap because of the seriousness of the supposed crime is not only caving in, but it is lowering yourself to the same levels.

Were I in Speedy's position, I would have no problem sending a PACE Witness Statement. If it gets to the summons stage, then disclosure (or not) of the video would be in order!

Mika,

Can you confirm whether the Right to Silence argument can be used when the RK knows they were not the driver at the time of the offence?
Mika
Tamara,

The right to silence argument is very straight forward and can be used by anyone who is under threat of prosecution:

“If you don’t tell us who committed the murder, we will put you in jail for life.”

“If you don’t tell us who was driving at the time of the alleged motoring offence, we will give you a £1000 fine and three penalty points.”

The argument is exactly the same as the PACE argument but the right to silence argument relies on ECHR case law, rather than domestic law – PACE.

In this case, the registered keeper (SG’s girl friend) is under threat of prosecution for failure to comply with the requirements of S 172 RTA 1988, therefore, she has a right to silence.

If SG’s girl friend names SG as the driver, then he has the right to silence both under PACE and the ECHR because he will also be compelled to provide a signed witness statement, pursuant on Section 12 RTOA 1988, confirming that he was the driver – SG’s girl friend is not being compelled to do this part because, apparently she was not driving. rolleyes.gif
Speedy Gonzales
so what would happen Tamara, if i used the PACE witness statement, then i get the summons, then they disclose the video evidence?

Would i be hung drawn and quatered?

Also whats the right to silence argument?

Talion: The GF has a clean license.

Will i be garunteed a ban if i come clean? as i already have 3 points and i was 6 days off of the end of my probationary period, or would the Judge take into consideration how close i was to being allowed 12 points?

Thanks all
DW190
QUOTE
Would i be hung drawn and quatered?


No, you would be hanged. Only animals are hung. icon_wink.gif
Tamara-D
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
so what would happen Tamara, if i used the PACE witness statement, then i get the summons, then they disclose the video evidence?

Speedy,

As far as I am aware, and IANAL, there have been no cases that have got to this stage. It is highly unlikely that they will disclose the LTI 20-20 traffic video.

If they do disclose it, you can have it examined by an expert who will be able to calculate the true speed of the vehicle concerned.

Most LTI 20-20's are operated by civilians, who are not authorised or empowered to offer the primary evidence of speeding.

The LTI 20-20 is highly unreliable and it was designed to measure distance, not speed!

You also have the added backup of the PACE Witness Statement, which means they can't use the details as evidence, because they never issued you with a PACE caution first.

QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
Also whats the right to silence argument?

Read this post for details on the Right to Silence argument.

You will have to decide whether to fight or not. If you decide to fight you will be in very good shape. If you decide not to then the best option is for your GF to ignore the NIP and take the s172.

wink.gif
Speedy Gonzales
RARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR my brain hurts lol :?

I have just read about 50 pages of posts on this forum over the last 5 hrs covering almost everything there is i think lol.

Right i need to clarify a few things as its all jumbled about in my head so please bare with me.

If GF does nothing she is liable for prosecution under S 172 offence, then she's to send off a right to silence letter when they try to prosecute her.... Right? as she has the right to silence because she is under threat of prosecution.

She can send the PACE witness statement attached to the NIP stating i was driving then i wait to receive my own NIP. Then i send the right to silence letter off :? icon_question.gif

If i remain silent will the be able to use the video as evidence as its only the officers "Automated" notebook? as is said in the ACPO letter. cause if so they will know its me driving just by looking.

Would saying "he was a 'test driver' as the car was forsale at the time of said offence and his name is............... 'Matt' i think that was it from birmingham way....... Solihull i think it was" work? would that be seen as 'Resonable Diligence'?? as this is all the info i have which is within my power to give icon_wink.gif

The picture was taken from the front BTW with the GF sat next to me.

How can i find out if it was a civvy operated camera?

Oh and 1 last thing, can the gf request to have the picture and video sent to us so she can have a better look to see if she can identify the driver to play for some more time as we need to respond pretty soon icon_evil.gif

Well i shall be back tomorrow to finish reading the Right to remain silent thread which makes for some very interesting reading.

I think it is great what you guys are doing for the likes of me, it is much appreciated i can assure you.

Speedy G
firefly
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
If GF does nothing she is liable for prosecution under S 172 offence, then she's to send off a right to silence letter when they try to prosecute her.... Right? as she has the right to silence because she is under threat of prosecution.

Correct. If she did this, then she would get the points (and the fine) and not you. If you girlfriend works in the legal business then maybe she would fancy her chances? icon_eek.gif

QUOTE
She can send the PACE witness statement attached to the NIP stating i was driving then i wait to receive my own NIP. Then i send the right to silence letter off  
Not quite. If your girlfriend wants to nominate you as the driver then get her to fill the NIP out with your name on it. Once you have your own, you can then submit the PACE statement/right to silence.

QUOTE
If i remain silent will the be able to use the video as evidence as its only the officers "Automated" notebook? as is said in the ACPO letter. cause if so they will know its me driving just by looking.

If you remain silent when you get your own NIP then YOU will be prosecuted for s172! Video evidence will then be irrelevant as there will be no proof of who the driver was as you have not responded to the NIP. And before you ask, no they can't use your girlfriend's NIP which nominated you as the driver. icon_wink.gif

QUOTE
Would saying "he was a 'test driver' as the car was forsale at the time of said offence and his name is............... 'Matt' i think that was it from birmingham way....... Solihull i think it was" work? would that be seen as 'Resonable Diligence'?? as this is all the info i have which is within my power to give  

What you must not do is try and run different defences at one time. I wouldn't bother about this approach as your girlfriend has been in to see the pictures already.
cjm99
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
If GF does nothing she is liable for prosecution under S 172 offence, then she's to send off a right to silence letter when they try to prosecute her.... Right? as she has the right to silence because she is under threat of prosecution


There is a problem here. If the crown have a copy of the photo, and can plainly see that your GF. is not the driver, then she has no right to silence, for she can not by giving the 'statutory information' be self incriminating. See Wey -v- Austria. The CoP has therefore every right to demand that under his powers of sec 172 , the RK nominates the keeper at the time of the aledgad offence.


Chris
BA21
Chris,
That's what I thought too. But..

If Mika/Jackie/Lance are right, then because there is a criminal sanction for not supplying the information, then the right to silence applies, since it is the GF that will be prosecuted.

At least that's what I think they are saying.

BA21
BA21
And...

I can't see any point in the GF returning the PACE witness statement either. The Police/CPS wouldn't seek to use the NIP/S172 form as evedence anyway - they can't - the volentary confession has to be "purported to be signed" by the accused. So I don't think it makes any difference whether the GF returns the NIP/S172 as supplied, or replies with PACE.

If she's going to return anything, I think she should keep it simple and just return the NIP/S172 filled out naming the driver.

BA21
Talion
QUOTE (BA21)
And...

I can't see any point in the GF returning the PACE witness statement either. The Police/CPS wouldn't seek to use the NIP/S172 form as evedence anyway - they can't - the volentary confession has to be "purported to be signed" by the accused. So I don't think it makes any difference whether the GF returns the NIP/S172 as supplied, or replies with PACE.  

If she's going to return anything, I think she should keep it simple and just return the NIP/S172 filled out naming the driver.

BA21


As I see it, if said GF returns NIP completed speedy is left fighting his own ticket, he risks everything, ok if he wins no problem, but if he loses due to any type of fudgement he's up the creek without any for of transport, job, house !
Mika
SG,

I may have unintentionally misled you.

As your girlfriend has already viewed the photographic evidence and knows for sure that she was not driving, she may not have a right to silence - she is only providing “information”.

In this case, it may now only be you (the driver) that has the right to silence.
cjm99
QUOTE (BA21)
If Mika/Jackie/Lance are right, then because there is a criminal sanction for not supplying the information, then the right to silence applies, since it is the GF that will be prosecuted


I think not. It is the fundamental right 'not to self incriminate' that gives rise to the right to silence.

Chris
BA21
[forum link]

Ok - in that case it was Monoi and Monoi's wife (rather than GF), but Mika's reply seems to be saying thaty Monoi has a right to silence because there is a criminal sanction.

In Speedy's case, the prosecution would have to prove that the GF knew it wasn't her driving in order to say that she didn't have a right to silence. How do they know that unless GF tells them so?

BA21
Mika
BA21,

SG’s girlfriend knows that she was not driving because she has been to view the photograph and, presumably, there were police officers (witnesses) present at the time she did so.

Perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice, are still considered to be slightly more serious than speeding. icon_eek.gif
BA21
RE: Perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice, are still considered to be slightly more serious than speeding.

Mika,
I am catogorically NOT implying that anyone should lie - just exploring the boundaries of where the RTS is. Remaining silent would not be lying.

I just don't see the difference between this case, and Monoi's. Both (Monoi and GF) knew they weren't driving, but only Monoi has a RTS? Is that because Monoi was only 'fairly sure' he wasn't driving, but GF is 'absolutely sure' now she's seen the photos?

BA21
JackieA
Hi,

Just a quick note. You cannot use the Right to silence argument if you were not driving and are nominating someone else because you are not incriminating yourself.

If you do not know whether or not you were driving and maybe prosecuted under S172, the right to silence argument can be adapted to say, " I am not certain as to whether or not I was the driver, in the case of me being summonsed as the driver I wish to state the following......


JackieA
Speedy Gonzales
Hi

This is SG's GF, I haven't had time to read all the links yet but I am going to this evening so please bear with me. I am only going on what SG has tried to tell me :?

Am I understanding this correct:-

I do not have the right to remain silent in relation to the NIP as I know it was not me driving and I have seen the video. I would not be incriminating myself

But if I ignore the NIP they will prosecute me under s172 and then do I have the right to remain silent or not?

If we decide to go the other route and try to drag the matter out over 6 months. Is it 6 months from the date of the offence or from the date of receiving the NIP?

Do I return the NIP with SG's details on it and then when he receives his NIP he writes asking for info on whether it was a civilian operating the scamera, video footage, calibrations etc

If I was to accept the s172 would I have to face anyone in authority i.e police officer or magistrate as SG has said I am a bad liar. If I ignore the NIP what should I expect next? Will they just send me another form which I fill out pleading guilty (out of court) to s172 and then I will receive 3 points & a £1000 fine.

Something which I don't think SG has mentioned is that the morning after I received the NIP I phoned the safety camera unit and told them that it was someone test driving my car and asked how I should filll out the form. I don't think this is admissible as evidence as I was not giving a PACE warning?
I felt uneasy about contiuing with this story as I do not want to be prosecuted for perjury hence why we still have the NIP and SG has asked for your help.

If a s172 offence is simply 3 points and £1000 fine why do more people not go down this route? Why did JK not do it smile.gif

I think this is enough questions for now? I will start reading the threads/links after dinner rolleyes.gif

SG's GF

P.s as SG said I do work in the legal industry but doing conveyancing and although I did study PACE briefly at the beginning of my course it was all a very long time ago :?
Speedy Gonzales
Right just to keep you all updated on this one.

The Mrs has ignored the NIP which had a deadline of 16th Sept.
So what happens next?? Do we just wait for the S172 Summons to come throu the post and then does she plead guilty to the S172 offence buy letter or does she have to goto court?
Also what are the chances of Mr Plod turning up on our doorstep for a friendly chat with the mrs? As i dont want to be the one that answers the door to them lol.

I will keep you all updated

SG
Speedy Gonzales
..
Speedy Gonzales
Im getting a bit scared/excited/apprehensive now, it is exactly 5 months and 6 days since the date of the offence and every day i expect the dreaded letter to fall onto my door mat.

Is it rare for them to take this long or are they making us sweat?
Also if we do get something come through the door, what is it likely to be?
Any help/advice on what to do in preparation would be excellent so at least i can read up on what i am going to use as my defence.

All advice is very much appreciated

SG
Speedy Gonzales
Helloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Anyone wanna reply or not? rolleyes.gif
Observer
Later - try to exercise some patience.
Speedy Gonzales
Last time i excersied patience i waited from the 27th september to 20th Jan without a reply to the same questions, almost 4 months.
And instead of your smart alec comments you could of tried to be a little bit more helpful maybe.
I was going to start a fresh thread but thought better of it, maybe i should of then i may of got more replies!!!!!!!
86 views today alone and only you reply, how much more patient should i be? Should i wait till i have been fucked over by our legal system maybe i will get replies then.
what do you think?
Sorry about the rant but it would take 30 seconds for someone in the know to give me a bit of advice.
Am i asking too much?????????????/

Thanks

SG
Nozzer
Or maybe try and donate some cash!!

QUOTE
Last time i excersied patience i waited from the 27th september to 20th Jan without a reply to the same questions, almost 4 months


About enough time to have read the posts and get all the advice you want for free!!!

Or theres always, try driving slower than 105mph?
andy_foster
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
Im getting a bit scared/excited/apprehensive now, it is exactly 5 months and 6 days since the date of the offence and every day i expect the dreaded letter to fall onto my door mat.


If it happens, it happens. There's not much you can do but wait.

QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
Is it rare for them to take this long or are they making us sweat?


They either like to take their time, or are pretty inefficient. Take your pick.

QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
Also if we do get something come through the door, what is it likely to be?


An envelope. You will know what's inside when you open it.

QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
Any help/advice on what to do in preparation would be excellent so at least i can read up on what i am going to use as my defence.


If you receive a summons, the date listed will only be for a plea and adjournment, or a guilty plea and a sentence. If you are pleading not guilty, you will have plenty of time to prepare for the real hearing.
firefly
QUOTE (Speedy Gonzales)
Last time i excersied patience i waited from the 27th september to 20th Jan without a reply to the same questions, almost 4 months.
And instead of your smart alec comments you could of tried to be a little bit more helpful maybe.
I was going to start a fresh thread but thought better of it, maybe i should of then i may of got more replies!!!!!!!
86 views today alone and only you reply, how much more patient should i be? Should i wait till i have been f*cked over by our legal system maybe i will get replies then.
what do you think?
Sorry about the rant but it would take 30 seconds for someone in the know to give me a bit of advice.
Am i asking too much?????????????/

Thanks

SG

Speedy, you have to appreciate that people don't just sit on their computers and wait for others to post.  There are times when you have to bide your time and wait for someone to advise you.  I've given you a shed load already, and so have others.  You must try to be patient, though you are anxious.  How about throwing a few quid into the coffers and becoming a member?

andy_foster's comments are sufficiently succinct.  :shock:
Speedy Gonzales
QUOTE (Nozzer)
Or maybe try and donate some cash!!

QUOTE
Last time i excersied patience i waited from the 27th september to 20th Jan without a reply to the same questions, almost 4 months


About enough time to have read the posts and get all the advice you want for free!!!

Or theres always, try driving slower than 105mph?



Look no-one likes a smart alec icon_wink.gif

About the speed i was travelling, do you know the circumstances? No, it could of been a medical reason, i could of been chased by gun weilding mafia bosses lol.

I am not a skin flint (my other half can vouch for that lol) and i will be more then happy to make a donation to Pepipoo once this has been dealt with.



Anyway, i have been reading other posts on this forum this afternoon and think i may have.

Right:

Offence happened Mid August
NIP turns up less then a week later
Mrs ignored NIP, didnt even send it back, i still have it sat here in front of me!

Note - It does not state the offence anywhere just my Speed!, the printer must of buggered up. Does this matter????

Timeout will be Mid feb less then 3 weeks away (6 months)

Mrs may get done for S172. right? If so how long do they have to summons her?
can she not say she sent it back naming me, i will hold my hands up and say she did fill it out naming me, hopefully by then it would of timed out because i have got 28days to reply to my NIP.

Am i getting warm??

Thanks

SG


*edit* sorry this post took 30 mins write as i left it half written while i ate my dinner so did not see others replies.

SG
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.