Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: PCN issues in Ciry of Westminster Sunday 23rd Dec
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
richardhudson
Hello

My wife was issued with a PCN – Mount Street, Westminster on Sunday 23rd December. The car was parked in a residents bay. We appealed because the text on the parking sign read as follows.


Resident
Permit
Holder

Or

Pay at machine
<==
Display ticket
Max stay 4 hours
No return
Within 1 hour
===========
Mon-sat
08:30am – 6:30pm

City of Westminster rejected the appeal stating that Resident permit holders at any time.

Do we stand a chance in hell re this ?

Many thanks indeed for reading

Regards

Edited because formatting looked odd.
spaceman
QUOTE (richardhudson @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 13:37) *
Hello

My wife was issued with a PCN – Mount Street, Westminster on Sunday 23rd December. The car was parked in a residents bay. We appealed because the text on the parking sign read as follows.


Resident
Permit
Holder

Or

Pay at machine
<==
Display ticket
Max stay 4 hours
No return
Within 1 hour
===========
Mon-sat
08:30am – 6:30pm

City of Westminster rejected the appeal stating that Resident permit holders at any time.

Do we stand a chance in hell re this ?

Many thanks indeed for reading

Regards

Edited because formatting looked odd.



You can park by buying a p&d ticket during the times indicated.

All other times (including Sundays) are residents permit only.

Which part of the sign did you not understand?
borsicorn
QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 15:13) *
QUOTE (richardhudson @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 13:37) *
Hello

My wife was issued with a PCN – Mount Street, Westminster on Sunday 23rd December. The car was parked in a residents bay. We appealed because the text on the parking sign read as follows.


Resident
Permit
Holder

Or

Pay at machine
<==
Display ticket
Max stay 4 hours
No return
Within 1 hour
===========
Mon-sat
08:30am – 6:30pm

City of Westminster rejected the appeal stating that Resident permit holders at any time.

Do we stand a chance in hell re this ?

Many thanks indeed for reading

Regards

Edited because formatting looked odd.



You can park by buying a p&d ticket during the times indicated.

All other times (including Sundays) are residents permit only.

Which part of the sign did you not understand?


What a rude and offensive response to a perfectly legitimate query.

The obvious question is the Mon-sat 08:30am – 6:30pm

Who says that this doesn't apply to any and all parking there?

If the OP parked on Sunday, why was this unacceptable?
silentmonkey
QUOTE (borsicorn @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 15:53) *
QUOTE (spaceman @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 15:13) *
QUOTE (richardhudson @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 13:37) *
Hello

My wife was issued with a PCN – Mount Street, Westminster on Sunday 23rd December. The car was parked in a residents bay. We appealed because the text on the parking sign read as follows.


Resident
Permit
Holder

Or

Pay at machine
<==
Display ticket
Max stay 4 hours
No return
Within 1 hour
===========
Mon-sat
08:30am – 6:30pm

City of Westminster rejected the appeal stating that Resident permit holders at any time.

Do we stand a chance in hell re this ?

Many thanks indeed for reading

Regards

Edited because formatting looked odd.



You can park by buying a p&d ticket during the times indicated.

All other times (including Sundays) are residents permit only.

Which part of the sign did you not understand?


What a rude and offensive response to a perfectly legitimate query.

The obvious question is the Mon-sat 08:30am – 6:30pm

Who says that this doesn't apply to any and all parking there?

If the OP parked on Sunday, why was this unacceptable?


That is the problem with the written word. There is no inflection. I must have read the reply differently. I see it as an interpretation of the sign followed by a genuine question as to which part of the sign was not understood.

Still It would help if we could see a picture of the sign. Can the OP put up a photo.
whitewing
The question is whether the time applies to the P&D only or the whole restriction - a photo may make it clearer. Were the times clearly associated only with the P&D section of the sign?
Whether or not it was in a cpz, and the times of that cpz may also be a factor, as these times would dictate the operating time of a sign that didn't have any explicit times stated.
I'd have thought that it should have 'at any time' on the residents part of the sign to make it apply on a Sunday
richardhudson
Right thanks for the feedback, I have images, which I probably should have posted initially. tongue.gif



The first is a map of mount street (between Park Lane and Berkley Square, incidently Jack Barclay had a Bug Veyron on display which looked fab). The restriction sign was about 20foot behind the car but on the same side of the road. I have attached two pics because SWMBO managed to blur one which shows the entire sign. dry.gif









Feedback neg or otherwise is appreciated as I am now unsure of my comprehension of the basics of my native tongue mellow.gif


whitewing
IMO The position of the horizontal bar clearly indicates that the hours apply to both restrictions, not just the P&D, and therefore not restricted on Sundays, so no contravention.
I can't see any argument that the hours could only apply to the P&D - even a notice on the P&D machine would not be relevant as you would have no reason to look at the machine based on the sign.

axeman
the signage does seem confusing but i would have expected that the times apply to everyone (residents or parkers) and outside of them there are no restrictions.
Adenuff
Agree with Whitewing and Axeman- restrictions only apply at times stated therefore no contravention
borsicorn
I agree entirely.

I believe spaceman owes you an apology.
The Rookie
For what its worth, that is the assumption I cam to (before reading your comments) however the way it was first posted was ambiguous as the nature of the line was unclear, although the responce was a little terse to say the least.

Simon
richardhudson
Many thanks

So there is general agreement that I have not contravened parking restrictions.

The letter from City of Westminster states I have 14 days to pay at the discounted rate or Make a formal representation.

They conclude with standard boilerprint

“I can assure you that your informal challenge against the issue of the PCN has been fully considered. Any new evidence can be presented with the formal Representation.”

What do I do next? Sorry if this sounds idiotic but I have managed to avoid a parking ticket for over 20 years now.


Bernie the Bolt
Personally I would write back and enclose a copy of the photograph and ask them to explain how the sign fits in with their description.

I would advise them of your intention to appeal, if necessary to the independent adjudicator and that if your appeal is successful at a PATAS hearing you will be making an application for costs based on their vexatious defence.

Otherwise you will have to wait until they send you a NTO and you do have the risk then of the undiscounted penalty.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.