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frisp
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2007
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 17 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A338 Pennings Rd (South towards Salisbury), TIDWORTH
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was totally unaware that I had been pinged until I received the NIP & accessed the site to look at the evidence. There were 3 persons in the car and none of us recall seeing a camera flash.

In addition I have a NavMan that would normally warn me of the locations of Safety Cameras, obviously it didn't


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:03:29 +0000
spanner345
17 days is not within 14 days, please clarify
The Rookie
Why can't you name the driver? too many unanswered questions....please explain!

Simon
frisp
Spanner the offense happened on the 17th Dec & the letter was dated the 28th and arrived at my house on the 3rd Jan 07. Unlikely I'll get away with the 14 days defense as they'll claim xmas post as mitigation.

Rookie, I don't know who was driving at the time as we changed over around about the Tidworth area.
frisp
QUOTE (spanner345 @ Mon, 14 Jan 2008 - 16:06) *
17 days is not within 14 days, please clarify


I've received the expected warning of summons letter acknowledging the following letter;

QUOTE
Date 12 Jan 07

Dear Sir or Madam
I have accessed the site and looked at the evidence contained there on and cannot state with any certainty who was driving at the time of the alleged offense.
I have done everything in my power to identify who the driver was at the time of the alleged offense but to no avail. That said, I can confirm that the people who may have driven the vehicle on or about that time may be willing to give their details should it become necessary.
However, I assure you that each of the potential drivers has seen the photographic evidence and none of them are able ascertain as to who it actually is behind the wheel.
I acknowledge my responsibilities under section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, but as is required by subsection 172(4) I believe that I have done as much as I possibly can to identify the driver and am currently unable to do so, having exercised at the very least “reasonable diligence”, to ascertain who it was.
I am unwilling to accept responsibility for this alleged offense at the present time and unless other evidence can be provided that can categorically clear up the issue; I would very much hope that that this matter can be avoided from going to court.

Yours Faithfully,

frisp


The reason I'm unwilling (at this time) to identify the driver is because he is a valued customer. What are my options now?

I am tempted to take responsibility on the balance of probabilities, however I'm loathe to do this as I've not even had a parking ticket in the 23 years I've been driving.

frisp
frisp
Thinking of sending the following letter - welcome ur thoughts

QUOTE
Date 19 Jan 07

Dear Sir or Madam
Thank you for your letter dated 16 Jan 08 the contents of which are noted. I am of the opinion that I have furnished you my details as I was driving that day, the issue is that I can not categorically state I was driving at the time of the offence as we changed over at or about Tidworth Garrison.
Further, after taking legal advice on this matter, I am writing to inform you that the above numbered NIP was received by myself, the registered keeper of the vehicle, on the 17th day after the alleged offence, I refer you to an email sent to your Safety Camera email addr dated 5 Jan 08 from the above email addr.
The requirements of section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, requires the registered keeper of a vehicle alleged to be involved in an offence to be served a NIP within 14-days.
Since the requirements of s.1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 have not been met, I understand that no further prosecution is possible, and I would be grateful if you could acknowledge this to be the case.

Yours Faithfully,

frisp
nemo
QUOTE (frisp @ Sat, 19 Jan 2008 - 07:18) *
Unlikely I'll get away with the 14 days defense as they'll claim xmas post as mitigation.

They can't use public holidays, weekends or postal delays over the Christmas period as an excuse for the notice arriving late - they have make appropriate allowance for such times.

Have you read this thread ?

QUOTE (frisp @ Sat, 19 Jan 2008 - 07:28) *
The reason I'm unwilling (at this time) to identify the driver is because he is a valued customer.

If you know who was driving at the time of the alleged offence then you should say so.

Knowing who was driving and denying that fact, or indeed claiming that some one else was driving, could land you in some serious trouble. These are not courses of action which would be encouraged or condoned by the members of this forum.

QUOTE (frisp @ Sat, 19 Jan 2008 - 07:18) *
I don't know who was driving at the time as we changed over around about the Tidworth area.

huh.gif

That is unfortunate because the driver would appear to have a good defence based upon late service of the initial notice..

A NIP which is deemed defective through late service precludes prosecution of the alleged offence to which the notice refers (speeding).

But if you are unable (or unwilling) to confirm the identity of the driver, then an out of time NIP will not protect you from prosecution of an offence of failing to provide driver details.
spanner345
The nip was late, don't pi$$ about, tell them who was driving.

Late nip is a defense, don't give them a chance to do you for something you have since created
frisp
Tks for all your responses

There is a slight wrinkle from my previous mails I forgot to mention that I privately lease the car and they have written to state that they sent the notice to the leasing company and deem the notice served on the owner.

However I as the keeper of the vehicle was not informed until 3 Dec 08 of any offence, what is the situation now wrt late serving of the NIP.

With regard to who was driving I am prepared to take responsibility based on the balance of probabilities and will write to them and say so.

Do I still have a case with late serving of the NIP?

MAC
nemo
QUOTE (frisp @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 17:52) *
There is a slight wrinkle from my previous mails I forgot to mention that I privately lease the car and they have written to state that they sent the notice to the leasing company and deem the notice served on the owner.

QUOTE (frisp @ Mon, 14 Jan 2008 - 16:03) *
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes

So who is the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, at least as far as the DVLA is concerned ?
frisp
QUOTE (nemo @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 20:31) *
QUOTE (frisp @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 - 17:52) *
There is a slight wrinkle from my previous mails I forgot to mention that I privately lease the car and they have written to state that they sent the notice to the leasing company and deem the notice served on the owner.

QUOTE (frisp @ Mon, 14 Jan 2008 - 16:03) *
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes

So who is the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, at least as far as the DVLA is concerned ?



The letter I received from Wilts police said that the leasing company that was sent the form is the registered keeper of the vehicle. Once the leasing company inform the scammers that I'm the current keeper surely the clock is still ticking & the responsibility is still on the scammers to now inform me within 14 days of the offence.

Rgds

MAC
nemo
QUOTE (frisp @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 16:06) *
The letter I received from Wilts police said that the leasing company that was sent the form is the registered keeper of the vehicle. Once the leasing company inform the scammers that I'm the current keeper surely the clock is still ticking & the responsibility is still on the scammers to now inform me within 14 days of the offence.

Not so.

The initial NIP must be served upon the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the alleged offence. Subsequent NIP / s.172 requests (ie where a driver has been nominated) are not subject to the same limitation of time..
The Rookie
After all the leasing company were allowed 28 days to reply, so there would be a bit of a contradiction there wouldnm't there!

Simon
frisp
QUOTE (nemo @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 16:12) *
QUOTE (frisp @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 - 16:06) *
The letter I received from Wilts police said that the leasing company that was sent the form is the registered keeper of the vehicle. Once the leasing company inform the scammers that I'm the current keeper surely the clock is still ticking & the responsibility is still on the scammers to now inform me within 14 days of the offence.

Not so.

The initial NIP must be served upon the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days of the alleged offence. Subsequent NIP / s.172 requests (ie where a driver has been nominated) are not subject to the same limitation of time..



So basically I've no case and must admit to an offence I'm not entirely sure I committed or face an increased fine & more points. What happened to the prosecution having to make thier case based on evidence & my rights not to incriminate my self especially on circumstantial evidence.

Whats the best option now - wait for the summons - plead guilty and offer a statement of mitigation or just write back to the traffic unit and surrender to thier bullying.
The Rookie
Erm, what now is you name the driver who was driving......if you can't you will have to show you used all reasonable dilligence in trying to ID the driver.

They can't summons anyone for speeding as they don't yet know who was driving....so you face a summons for S172 (failing to furnish the name of the driver) and unless you can show that reasonable dilligence, be found guilty, 6 points and about £300 fine and an insurance loading....

Simon
Hotel Oscar 87
Hi frisp

Some important things to bear in mind whilst making your final decision as to how you will deal with this.

The police/SCP's lurk on here and the production of print-outs of forum threads at Court is becoming boringly predictable. Furthermore, there is more than sufficient detail in this thread for them to identify you and your comments suggesting that you are unwilling to identify the driver "because he's valued customer". How much do you value him? Enough to sacrifice your freedom/job/home etc etc?

These comments, if they were to be followed up by you declaring yourself as the driver, could amount to attempting to pervert the course of justice. In these circumstances, regardless of how noble your intentions, you are almost guaranteed jail time (this is no idle threat) at a Crown Court hearing. The Courts really do not like this offence and the average sentence is 6 months. What effect might this have on your continuing employment/marriage/partnership? On your release you will still have the other offences to deal with and from the date of your conviction you will struggle to secure any insurance whether that be for life purposes, your car, home or just for holiday.

At the end of the day all we are talking about here is probably just £60 and 3 points. I suggest you keep it in perspective and don't allow the situation to, potentially, ruin your future. If your customer is a decent fellow then he should take this on the chin. Besides, you could always offer him a discount on his next order to cover it.
frisp
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Sun, 27 Jan 2008 - 04:07) *
Hi frisp

Some important things to bear in mind whilst making your final decision as to how you will deal with this.

The police/SCP's lurk on here and the production of print-outs of forum threads at Court is becoming boringly predictable. Furthermore, there is more than sufficient detail in this thread for them to identify you and your comments suggesting that you are unwilling to identify the driver "because he's valued customer". How much do you value him? Enough to sacrifice your freedom/job/home etc etc?

These comments, if they were to be followed up by you declaring yourself as the driver, could amount to attempting to pervert the course of justice. In these circumstances, regardless of how noble your intentions, you are almost guaranteed jail time (this is no idle threat) at a Crown Court hearing. The Courts really do not like this offence and the average sentence is 6 months. What effect might this have on your continuing employment/marriage/partnership? On your release you will still have the other offences to deal with and from the date of your conviction you will struggle to secure any insurance whether that be for life purposes, your car, home or just for holiday.

At the end of the day all we are talking about here is probably just £60 and 3 points. I suggest you keep it in perspective and don't allow the situation to, potentially, ruin your future. If your customer is a decent fellow then he should take this on the chin. Besides, you could always offer him a discount on his next order to cover it.


I've decided to modify the site PACE witness statement and emailed it to the appropriate authority, based on the balance of probabilities, identifying myelf as the driver.

Thanks for all your help, I note the comments regarding big brother, I'll take it on the chin this time and learn my lesson.

Rgds

MAC
The Rookie
As you seemed pretty sure you kow who was driving, and they can probably print this page out, would you be happy taking the stand are possibly commiting perjury with its jail sentance?

Stop messing about and do the right thing, name the driver!

Simon
Hotel Oscar 87
Why are you using the PACE w/s? Are you determined to attract extra attention?

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