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afraid
hello my husand is the rk of our mercedes viti 108 van. i am on insurance and so is 18 year old son . in septemer we received a nip for speeding 76mph in 60 limit for motor vehicle. i knew i was driving van this week as car was being serviced for mot. i sent nip back next day and we were initially offered a fixed penalty. the next day we had a letter from fixed penalty office stating the offense was still moter vehicle 76mph in a 6omph but they had not noted it was a van which apparently should have been travelling at 50mph. i rang the supervisor and although she said the wrong paperwork had been sent again the case had to go to court as it was a van which is restricted it is mam2700. i was in a awful state and then to make things worse we realized it was my son driving the picture we had was blurred but we then knew we had to inform the ticket office it was him. i phoned them they said it was ok i had to write to expliain which i did, they replied no further action would be taken against me and sent him a nip which we sent back signed by him. we also asked for them to take into consideration there is windows on the side of the van the insurance know but not the dvla as its not a concersion.the office said it was still a van. i am very worried as son has only paseed test just over a year. he is not a boy racer does not drink and only uses the van to go training and college lock release, we have always felt safe with him driving the van as vision is good and it is a small engine and wont go fast uphill at all. main concern is what to say in court we are waiting a date. he has a full ike license as rides off road events at weekends and hopes to ride aroad this year. he never rides a roadbike. we will get a letter from his boss and local bike clu orginser he helps with for charcter reference. he has told all his friends about van speeds and 2 company directors who did not know. is there any advice what he can plead to not have to retest he is a nice lad 3rd year apprentice and has never given us grieve, he wil plead guilty it was a safety camera van at the ottom of a hill coming down. his details on his form stated exceeding speed limit for type of vehicle 76mph. any advice appreciated thanks
Ocelot
According to http://www.pepipoo.com/Magistrates_guidelines.htm,

"For travelling between 21 and 30 mph faster than a 20-30 mph speed limit, or between 26 and 35 mph faster than a 40-50 mph speed limit, or between 31 and 40 mph faster than a 60-70 mph speed limit, the guidelines suggest that the magistrates endorse with 6 penalty points or consider disqualification for between 14 and 56 days. "

So, unfortunately, at 76 in a 50 he is just on the 6 points limit (and hence having to retake his test). If he had been doing 75 he is likely to have gotten away with 4-5 points.

I don't think there is any discretion allowed in deciding whether to take away his licence if he pleades guilty to 76 in a 50, but there may be a chance of arguing that he was doing slightly less than 76, although still speeding. Howeevr, I'm not sure if he can do this if there is a speed van evidence stating his speed as 76 (If it is an officer's opinion of a speed without proof, you can sometimes do this - see sections 18-23 in http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementg...es/hearing.htm).

Not much comfort I'm afraid, but someone else may be able to offer an alternative angle.

borsicorn
Having sat through 10 court hearings for my own case (acquitted) I sat in the public gallery of Hull Crown Court for the last 2, awaiting my turn.

I heard a case being appealed, having had a guilty verdict and 6 points applied by the magistrates.

The circumstances were very similar to your son's.

A guy with less than 2 years' experience had been given 6 points and his licence revoked by the DVLA.

On appeal, the Judge said there were special reasons and quashed the points.

Hope for you, then. Good luck.
cheekycharlie
You could calculate the speed yourself:

http://www.abd.org.uk/gatso_photo_checking.htm

I am sure that you might be able to knock a few mph off the speed.

There may be other ways like disputing the absolute accuracy of a camera

andy_foster
How long ago did he pass his bike test? If it was more than 2 years before the alleged offence he will not have his licence revoked for getting 6 points.
afraid
hello hope im replying in right place. it is less than 2 years for both tests August for bike 06 octoer 06 car. just wondered if the magistrates guidelines are just guidelines or is there any lenancy if he begs for forgiveness ie character references need to attend college on block release need for bike licence later this year to ride european rounds.i presume he will need to attend court as there is a chance licence will be revovoked and he is happy to defend himself. does anyone think there is a chance it may get thrown out before court as there were so many mistakes made by ticket office and we were initially offered fixed penalty. i know we are clutching at straws thankyou
afraid
SORRY to be a nuisance. i am also terrified he will be charged with dangerous careless driving as nip says exsess speed for type of vehicle, can the cps change the charges for the summons, there has been no mention of this on nip and it was a sunny day 11am one car in front of him downhill on hill which was double line single lane other side, thankyou
afraid
nip states exceeding speed limit for class of vehicle contrary to S86 89 RTRA 1984 T137 SORRY
andy_foster
Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard, and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.
afraid
hello have tried to do wizard dont know if its worked, sorry computer old any advice greatly appreciated, is there any point begging for less points so no retest needed
afraid
sorry any suggestions cant seem to do wizard story as 1st post waiting summons made myself ill over this although son is the one going to court i feel for him can he beg for less points character reference need for licence to ride aroad later college lock relaese, any advice helpful could he get short term ban may be better than new test thanks
The Rookie
We need you to complete the wizard and have the output added to this thread to be able to give meaningful advice, the age of the computer shouldn't be relevant as its web based anyway...

Simon
afraid
sorry our insurance on vehicle is due near end jan,should i tell insurance about impending court case if we have not a date before insurance due will obviuosly tell as soon as we know fine points etc many thanks
Bluedart
QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 16:47) *
sorry our insurance on vehicle is due near end jan,should i tell insurance about impending court case if we have not a date before insurance due will obviuosly tell as soon as we know fine points etc many thanks


What does the thread above say?
nimh999
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 13:16) *
We need you to complete the wizard and have the output added to this thread to be able to give meaningful advice, the age of the computer shouldn't be relevant as its web based anyway...
In the first instance you should follow this advice.


QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 2 Jan 2008 - 16:47) *
sorry our insurance on vehicle is due near end jan,should i tell insurance about impending court case if we have not a date before insurance due will obviuosly tell as soon as we know fine points etc many thanks
You should always tell the insurance company everything.

A pending conviction should not alter the premium they quote because until he admits the offence or is found guilty in court then he is innocent.

If and when he admits the offence or is found guilty is when it may affect the premium.
Ocelot
Sounds like there is some hope after all.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=26075
afraid
hello thankyou i still cant do wizard but may try again. he will go to court if summoned with references and plead not for six points so he does not need to retest. he could cope with a short ban it is mainly his bike licence he is concerned about losing for a while if he retests as later this year he hopes to ride some european off road events he needs his licence for, he was only just in the summons bracket and before the ticket office realized they had made a error and it was a van they offered a fixed penalty it was a disaster with paperwork before they evidentually got it right, i rang the ticket office this week and the paperwork is still with them they said it had to go to the traffic police and then the cps next offense was 24th sept, insurance due soon have told insurance of pending conviction and they said until we know what he will get there cant be a increase, thankyou
afraid
hello sorry to bring this around again, still waiting for summons dreading post each day feeling very ill, son accepts he will be punished but hopes to beg for 1 less point or short term ban mailnly does not want to lose bike licence as although does not ride on road he competes well at british off road events and may get a chance to compete in world event in summer time to retake test may hinder this does anyone think this may get thrown out before summons as paperwork was very misleading until eventually right i think. last letter from ticket office was not signed just printed name as well im proably clutching at straws think i should have put it all in writing insead of over the phone . hope some of this makes sense, i feel on verge of cracking up which is crazy!! but nerves shot to pot
afraid
hello will make this last post i hope as must be annoying people, does anyone think as son was in van vito 108 which is 2600kg he could have his chrage changed to careless dangerous driving as it was a van going 76mph in a 60mph but he should have been going 50mph, the thought of this terrifies me, we have insured on van insurance and his full licence says he can drive up to 3500 GVW So he is well covered, still waiting with dread daily post was talking to chap we are insuring van with today who is disputing his case from august, any thoughts on pleading for 5 points or short ban SORRY TO BE A NUISANCE just so many things going around in head.
spanner345
Try nip wizard again, use additional questions button when it appears, this may help.

By the way, the vito sport is an mpv, does this make the 108 a car based van. If so 60mph may apply.
jobo
Hi you wont get a great deal back untill you fill in the NIp wizard

Theres very little chance of them changing the speeding to careless dangerous driving as there is no such offence its either careless or dangerous

careless has no more and possibly less points than the speeding

and dangerous is very hard to prove and very unlikly for this speed especialy when they seem to have you bang to right for the speeding anyway.

ive looked through you thread and have no idear what method of speed detection was used against you there may be other avenues of defence.

have you checked the speed limit for the van is as stated by the powers that be
afraid
thanks for reply will try to do wizard again but can fill it but not get any further
spanner345
additional information button
afraid
cant get into wizard will try later or am speed detection was camera van at bottom of hill in daylight. first nips came back as moter vehicle in 60limit offered fixed penalty then clerical error letter said they had realized was van so couldnt qualify for fixed penalty they already had sent me, i cant help but think they may have realized as i phoned them to ask if they received signed nip ack and must have mentioned van which made them recheck dont know, after 3 wrong nips finally sent right one, thanks everyone
jobo


Built-up
Areas

Single Carriageways

Dual
Carriageways

Motorways

Cars and motorcycles
(including car derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight

30

60

70

70

Cars towing caravans or trailers
(including car derived vans and motorcycles)

30

50

60

60

Buses and coaches
(not exceeding 12 metres in overall length)

30

50

60

70

Goods vehicles
(not exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight). Note: This includes vans that are not 'car derived'

30

50

60

70

Goods vehicles
(exceeding 7.5 tonnes maximum laden weight)

30

40

50

60

Van Drivers ...

Many van drivers get caught out because they do not know the law. Make sure you know the national speed limits that your vehicle is restricted to

  • If your van has a maximum laden weight (Gross Vehicle Weight) of over 2 tonnes (2020kg) then you are restricted to lower speed limits on single carriageways and dual carriageways.
i read this and it depends if you were on a dual carriageway or singe




jobo
sorry that didnt come out properly

what it says is the speed limit for vans on single carrageway roads is 50 but sixty on dual carriageways
jobo
expert help needed

There are issues with them issuing 4 nips , the final one ( at least) im assuming after the 14 day period they have to send them.

I dont know if this invalidated them( as the speeding still stands its just the amount over that has changed).

can one of the legal experts comment please
saracengb
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 17 Jan 2008 - 17:54) *
sorry that didnt come out properly

what it says is the speed limit for vans on single carrageway roads is 50 but sixty on dual carriageways



OP says 60 limit so I'd assume it was single carriageway NSL as they originally thought it was a car. We'll have to wait for either some more info from afraid or expert help I think Jobo.

I guess the NIP wizard won't help now - not if there's four NIPs in total?

Phil
afraid
sorry to confuse everyone 1st nip in husands name reg keeper for exceeding 60 limit im moter vehiclereplied as thought originally i was driving in my name nip came shortly after in my name for above offenseconditional fixed penalty offer sent in my namenext day letter from ticket office sayingwith no explanation this offense can not be dealt with by fixed penalty and has been refereed to traffic prosecution unit i was asked to sign new nip but it was the same offense as above again, i rang up and they said the nip was wrong but could eventually be amendeed but it was going forward for prosecution as 2nd check had realized was goods vehicleto our horror we realized son was driving that day and time was when he was driving not me. we rang ticket office immediately they said i had to put it in writing which did, had a letter saying no more action against me but new nip issued to son with no right offense on exceeding speed limit for vehicle classstill waiting for summons, if he was in a car would oviously got fixed penalty, he has told loads of people about van speeds which are etched in our minds now not many new including 2 company directors and although this is no excuse he hopes to use this in mitigation in begging not for 6 ponts. sorry to go on and on wont post again unless any complications still clutching at straws may be chucked out, he was insured to drive and on his licence as mentioned can drive up to 3500 thanks for all your help he will probaly plead guilty attend and beg
afraid
hello can anyone tell me what happens after refereel made to traffic police for prosecuction,, is it the police who decides if the case will go forward to court or cps or are they the same. they may find our case complicated by misleading nips and a offer of a fixed penalty they retracted i dont know, it is 4 months from offense so loads of time yet, if by some miracle we dont hear by after 6 months is it worth ringing ticket office or local courts or is it best to ignore, i thought about ringing courts yesterday to see if any info laid but dont want to stir things up, part of me wants to hear now but could do with extra time to keep sons licence if it does get revoked , also can dvla change points if they disagree with magistrates decision THANKYOU
nemo
QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 09:18) *
is it the police who decides if the case will go forward to court or cps or are they the same.

Supposedly, the police investigate the alleged offence and gather evidence etc. Its the Crown Prosecution Service that decides whether or not to prosecute people in court.

QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 09:18) *
..if by some miracle we dont hear by after 6 months is it worth ringing ticket office or local courts..

If your son gets a week or two beyond 6 months from the date of the alleged offence without receiving a summons, you could phone the court which deals within motoring matters in the area he was 'pinged' and ask whether any informations have been laid in his name.

QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 09:18) *
..also can dvla change points if they disagree with magistrates decision

No. The DVLA cannot overrule a Magistrates' decision.
afraid
thankyou, do they let you know if not going to prosecute thankyou
nemo
QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 10:13) *
thankyou, do they let you know if not going to prosecute thankyou

Generally not, no.
afraid
sorry last post is information laid in court when the police are gathering evidence or not to the final stage when a date is set, thought about phoning court but no point if they do not know until last stage
nemo
QUOTE (afraid @ Wed, 23 Jan 2008 - 15:38) *
..thought about phoning court but no point if they do not know until last stage

The court will not be able to advise you whether the police intend to proceed this matter until either an information has been laid or the offence 'times out' (6 months).

afraid
thankyou so much nemo for your help, i did call all local courts no info laid as yet still loads of time though, as you see i am a paranoid mother who has been deeply affected by all this nerves shot to pieces son knows he has done wrong and has learnt from this and just hope the judge will look at his chracter and decide for himself if it gets to this cant help but think it is unfair it may go to court as initially was offered fixed penalty until the ticket office realized and he is just in summons bracket althoough understand everyone should be treated the same, he is a hard working 18 year old ambitious especially with his bike riding skills,i promise to not ask put any more posts on here as probaly driving people mad off to doctors next week for calming tablets!!! anyone would think he had murdered someone sorry again reassurance and help appreciated
afraid
hello sorry to bring this up again. its 2 weeks to 6 months i presume not to ring courts yet as there is still time for them to lay info, i continue to worry for son can magistrates deviate from 6 points and give 5 or must they give 6. we were thinking he should go for begging for short term ban does anyone have any ideas of how long this would be, he could cope for a little while as although he occasionally drives work van he manly is inside 3rd year apprentice, his main worry is not having a licence for riding offroad he is being selected for world round in july and rides british events he is very good at, it is not speed events but endurance, having to take his test again would take some long and i dont really think he will learn from this, he is sensible anyway but has learnt a great deal from the last 6 months and im sure wont make the same mistake again, anyway sorry to keep on
Pete D
What date did he pass his bike Test ? was that more than 2 years before the date of the offence. Pete D
Chas820
Stop panicking,you have to wait to see if this times out,don`t phone anyone yet,you don`t want to highlight your case to anyone.Softly softly wink.gif
afraid
QUOTE (Chas820 @ Sun, 9 Mar 2008 - 11:51) *
Stop panicking,you have to wait to see if this times out,don`t phone anyone yet,you don`t want to highlight your case to anyone.Softly softly wink.gif
afraid
thanks wont ring yet he passed his bike test august 2006 so is still within revocation time, dont mean to panick but will be glad when all over whatever consequences so can move on, still think pleading for short ban will best scenario, thanks to everyone for reading my mad stories.
afraid
sorry does anyone think magistrates will come down harder as offense is excess speed for type of vehicle vito van with windows on one panel and in back. i feel myself getting very worked up again silly me
The Rookie
The amount over the limit is what is relevant, type/style of van is not (unless its a dual puprose vehicle which is legally a car if its under 2,500Kg's)

Simon
afraid
thanks when we get summons is it worth saying could he please be considered for short term ban as i presume less than 6 points for 76 in a 50 vehicle is unlikely he will attend and defend himself with letters from employer as can now drive works vehicles if needed test drives etc needs to travel to college as third year apprenticehip letter from organiser of local motercycle club he helps set up tracks and need for licence to represent country in offroad motercycle events he does' he has also spent loads of time talking to friends and companys aout van speeds,he is truely sorry for what he has put his dad sister and myself through as well as i have been in a awful state with stress and worry, we all support him and will attend court with him what he does as a hobby as well is a big part of all our lives sorry this is last post i will post before the summons arrives, coming up 6 months now may phone court a few days after thankyou
afraid
just a thought how complicated is a newton hearing can he plead guilty then on day see cps and say he didnt think was doing thar speed but admits to speeding, son said straight away he felt he wasnt at 76mph he was going down steep hill if he was going up it they would never have caught him as small engine means struggles up any hills, dont know whever it may wind them up more and distact away from he hopes for short ban or miracle less points thanks
The Rookie
A Newton hearing can be easy or very complicated, a lot depends on the CPS, they may challenege you to 'prove' a lower speed and an adjournmnet made to allow the video to be supplied and checked, or they may accept it on the day....

Simon
afraid
thanks as he is at their mercy i think it may be better just to plead guilty and beg, its 6 months easter monday so if nothing heard after that may give local courts a call thanks
saracengb
Just remember the information only needs to be laid within the 6 month period. Summons can be served after this time. I'd give it a week after the "due date" before making any contact. Not a sure fire guarantee but worth holding back.

HTH
afraid
hello 6 months is up but looking at local cases in papers the system is very slow down here, just wondered if anyone had any thoughts there is a free driving lecture course over 3 wednesday nights coming up down here. does anyone think might help sons case if he can say he attended, i may go with him as sounds useful and is free, i am getting more and more in a state also does anyone think he will get a worse punishment as its excess speed for class of vehicle 76 in a 60 but should have been 50, i think i am going to have a nervous breakdown soon, just want it over with
The Rookie
Anything he can do that 'looks good' is not going to hurt, the summons will normally arrive within the month of the 6 months...post back if/when it does!

Simon
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