Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: 70 In A 50... Estimated, No Proof Shown To Me...
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Willis
Help me!!! I'm new on here, so apologies if this isn't in the right part of the forum.



Right, this be the story of my tale of woe. rolleyes.gif

Driving towards Macclesfield from Hale. Travelling on a single carriageway that runs into a dual carriageway (Altrincham Road, Wilmslow, heading underneath the Manchester Airport tunnel). 50MPH speed limit. I was behind 3 or 4 vehicles at this point. When the dual carriageway started, I pulled into the outside line to overtake a car and a couple of vans that were previously in front of me and had moved into the nearside lane. I'm 99% certain I didn't go past 60MPH as the road was pretty greasey and it's a blackspot anyways, and is generally heavily Police'd.

At this point, there was at least 2 other vehicles behind me, a Toyota Rav 4 and a black mini-van of some sort. No sign at all of any Police vehicle. Once I'd overtaken the cars, I pulled back into the nearside lane (again, at this point there was no sign of a Police vehicle in my mirrors), drive about 100 meters and reach the end of the tunnel where I begin to slow for a roundabout. I go straight on at the roundabout and get a glint in my mirror, I have a look and see a marked Police car flashing me to pull over, so I pulled into the carpark at the hotel just after the roundabout. I've never been stopped before in my 12 months of driving, which is surprising really as I'm a young-looking 21 and I drive a 205 GTi. I know everyone says they're not a ''boy racer'', but I really am not. I bought the car as it was one of my favorites as a kid. Besides the fact that my mum works in insurance and my dad works with the Police as a recovery driver and they'd both give me a slap if I drove like a pudding!!! Anyways; I stop the car, turn off and get out, very polite etc. etc., I'm a nice boy. tongue.gif

Conversation goes;

P - Hi there mate, do you want to just jump in my car please?
W - Yeah, front or back?
P - Front's fine...

*Gets in the car*

P - Okay, do you know why I've asked you to pull over?
W - Nooo, not sure!?!
P - Right, well do you know what the speed limit was on that road there?
W - Erm, I thought it ws a 60, but I'm having doubts now!?!...
P - No, I'm afraid it is a 50MPH zone. Do you know how fast you were going?
W - Not sure to be honest, I was watching the road ahead...
P - Okay, well I believe you were travelling in the region of 75-80MPH...

*Reads the usual you have the right to remain silent...*

W - Oooh shit, I didn't think I was going that fast!?! I only sped up to overtake the vans...
P - Okay, don't worry. Are you the owner of the vehicle and do you have insurance and a valid licence?
W - Oh yes, both, car is registered to me, and insured in my name...

(I was not asked to produce any documentation to him and I did not volounteer any either)

*Formality of asking name address, etc. etc., name of insurance company etc. etc.*

P - Okay, the car is actually coming up as uninsured, so I'm going to have to make a phone call and get it cheked out...
W - Woah, okay, it is definately insured...

*Makes phone call, is told he will be phoned back in a few mins*

P - How long of you had the car then?
W - Erm, since about September or October, only a few months.
P - Ahh right okay, what did you pay for it if you don't mind me asking?
W - Just under £2000, bit of a project for me and my dad like...
P - Oh okay, very good.

*Me pointing at the screen on his dashboard*

W - Ooh, I've seen them on Road Wars on the TV, did it flash up saying I was uninsured or speeding or something?
P - No, no, this time I caught you the old fashioned way. I saw you down at the traffic lights, I was a few cars back and I thought you were going to overtake the Mercedes in front of you on the single-carriageway. I had to accelerate to around 75-80MPH to see where you had gone once you got into the tunnel so I'm pretty sure that you must have been doing a similar speed...
W - Ahh, bloody hell, didn't even use the gadgets on me then?
P - Hahaha, no no not today!!!

*Insurance people phone him back and confirm I have insurance*

P - Right, they've confirmed you do have insurance. So I'm issuing you with a fixed penalty for travelling at 70MPH in a 50MPH zone. Part of this ticket also requires you to take your MOT, licence and insurance documents to your local Police station...
W - Okay, that's Altrincham then, do I go today?
P - No, you have 7 days to do it. What will happen then is you will need to send a cheque to cover the cost of the fixed penalty and you will be given 3 points on your licence. Do you have any points at the moment?
W - Yeeah, I have 3 for a TS10. So, I am going to have my licence taken off me then?
P - Erm, it's hard to say, you may just get 3 points and nothing else but they may decide to uphold the full penalty and take your licence and if so you will need to do a re-test. Or they could just give you 2 points and a larger fine, but that is really down to the court...
W - Right, not to worry, am I okay to go now?
P - Yeah, that's fine.

To be honest, I thought the Police Officer was sound, and he was friendly enough and had a bit of a laugh with me calling all the posh machines in his car ''gadgets'' and telling him I'd seen them on Road Wars. He seemed to be quite into cars and I have no complaints with how I was spoken to or anything like that. Well, he at least seemed to be very interested in my car, asking how much I'd paid for it, how long I'd had it... But I suppose that's just part of his job!?!

BUT - He told me directly that he didn't record my speed as such and I wasn't on video.

SO - Where do I stand? Can I appeal on the grounds of lack of evidence?

Oh, and also, after he had sent me on my way and I was just opening the door to get out of the car, he suddenly stopped me and came out with; ''Are those number plates legal on there?'', to which I obviously replied ''I think so yes''. At this point I was told that he would have a problem with them but I have since checked at our local garage and have been told they are fine. They are pressed metal plates, but they are the standard UK font and spacing and have the GB crest to the left hand side. Finally, I was told ''What first alerted me to your prescene was the fact that I thought you were going to try and overtake the cars in front of you whilst still on the single-carriageway because you veered slightly off track...'' At this point I explained that I wouldn't have tried to overtake knowing that there was an extra lane about to be avaliable to me!!! wink.gif

The only thing I signed apart from the penalty form thing was to confirm that his notes which simply read ''I though it was a 60''.

As you can tell, I'm not too clued up on all of this. But I have 3 points for a TS10 (one monthe after passing my test) and need help.

SORRY IF IT'S A BIT LONG WINDED!!! laugh.gif
The Rookie
If you contest the FPN and go to court you will get a PC's statement in with that, soemtimes there version of events is 'cleaned up' a bit...if it was genuinley a 50 then as you agree you were probably speeding, its best to take it on the chin, if its actually a 60 or 70 (as a DC) then arguing he only noted his speed and that you were actually only doing the limit while he was playing catch up, I would give you at best a 50/50 chance.

Simon
davepoth
Although I guess there is a bit of a issue in that the office lost sight of you while trying to catch up. He was "Pretty sure" you must have been doing that speed, so there is doubt there.
Willis
Cheers people,

I've been to a local solicitor yesterday and had a good chin wag with him. He says the only thing I can do really is wait for a Court Summons to be issued and then once I have that, we can prepare a case for defence etc. He says that I stand a fair chance of winning in a court, due to the fact that no physical evidence was shown to me and none existed as I asked the Officer at the time. This is what set off the alarm bells in my head!!!

The solicitor also jumped on the fact that I was in a tunnel that is only around 300m long and on a bend so to lose sight of me at any point, or not have direct sight of me initially would be a factor in him not being able to get a recording with a gadget of any variety... Hopefully. Also, am I right in thinking that with the Officer being alone in the car he would have to use some form of gadget as he would have to confimr his opinion of speed?
davepoth
QUOTE (Willis @ Wed, 5 Dec 2007 - 09:57) *
Also, am I right in thinking that with the Officer being alone in the car he would have to use some form of gadget as he would have to confimr his opinion of speed?


All he needs is his speedometer, and sometimes not even that. The thing that you can get him on is his losing sight of you.
wolfie
QUOTE (Willis @ Wed, 5 Dec 2007 - 09:57) *
I've been to a local solicitor yesterday and had a good chin wag with him. He says the only thing I can do really is wait for a Court Summons to be issued and then once I have that, we can prepare a case for defence etc. He says that I stand a fair chance of winning in a court, due to the fact that no physical evidence was shown to me and none existed as I asked the Officer at the time. This is what set off the alarm bells in my head!!!

The solicitor also jumped on the fact that I was in a tunnel that is only around 300m long and on a bend so to lose sight of me at any point, or not have direct sight of me initially would be a factor in him not being able to get a recording with a gadget of any variety... Hopefully. Also, am I right in thinking that with the Officer being alone in the car he would have to use some form of gadget as he would have to confimr his opinion of speed?


The car speedo is the corroboration. The problem the bobby has is that he did not keep you in sight and therefore could not have followed you at a constant speed - so how can he accurately get a reading?
The Rookie
Beware solicitors more interested in charging a fee than giving the truth.....

The officer formed an opinion of excess speed and will claim he corroborated that with his speedo, if you loose in court it will cost you more (fine/costs+solicitor) as well as more points.....

He can follow at a set distance and have the car out of sight briefly (say over a crest) if the cars at the same distance, then the average speed is the same!

Simon
Willis
Cheers for your help people.

I'll keep you informed as things develop. I've now recieved a letter from Cheshire Constabulary informing me that they are in the process of contacting the ''Issuing Officer'' for his statement of events and I will be further contacted in due course in regard to the requested court hearing. I'm lucky to have a few friends in the force so I've been picking their brains this week!!!

Will
Willis
Sorry to drag this old thread back up, but I'm in need of some more help please.

As above, my ''offence'' was dated on the 29th November. As of the 29th May (6 months to the day of the ''offence''), I had not recieved anything from the ticket office or Police giving me a court date or any other such correspondence apart from what I recieved in December. (See post above).

Yesterday, 06/06/08, I recieved a letter postmarked 04/06/08 informing me that I am due in court on 14/07/08. The letter included a copy of the statement of the Officer who stopped me and also copies of the ticket issued to me at the time. The statement is dated as being written on 21/01/08, a full 2 months after I was stopped. Also, the covering letter was dated mid May, which would mean that they held onto the letter for almost 3 weeks before posting it to myself.

Now, where do I stand? Have they failed to press charges within 6 months of the event? Or am I getting the whole 6 month thing muddled up. I only have 5 weeks until I am due to be in court now, and obviously I am quite concerned because my licence will be lost if I am found guilty.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
andy_foster
Your letter will presumably be a summons. The clue is usually the word "Summons" in big letters at the top.
The summons should have either an issue date or an information date, or both. What matters is when the information (application for a summons) was laid. That has to be within 6 months of the date of the alleged offence. It usually takes 2-4 weeks to collate the evidence (and wait for the ink to dry) and serve the summons, although there is no statutory time limit for this.

Assuming that this is the (original) summons, the hearing date will only be for a plea to be entered. If you plead not guilty, a subsequent date will be set, either for a pre-trial review or for the trial.

If you scan or type up the occifer's statement (removing personal details) we might be able to offer some suggestions.
Faraway
Ifyou'd been going another 10-15mph faster you could have been looking at a short term ban and had your licence back but if found guilty to 70 in a 50 you'll probably get 3 points which I assume as a new driver will mean you need a retest etc . Has anyone ever gone into court and actually said no M'lud i am not guilty of 70 in a 50 I was actually doing 85?
Willis
Andy_Foster - It is indeed a summons.

It has a copy of the PC's statement in there aswell, which I have found to be an interesting read. There are parts of it that I feel are untrue. Such as the weather conditions that day being stated as ''fine'' when, in fact, it had been raining in earlier on and the road was pretty greasy. Also the fact that I was followed for ''0.4'' miles through a tunnel which is not 0.4 miles long has amazed me. I'm awaiting a call back from my solicitor to go and see him sometime this week so he can have a good read and see wether he thinks it is worth fighting.

I definately feel it is. Can somebody please tell me how often speed devices are supposed to be calibrated/checked for accuracy please? Including car speedometers... As the speedo in the Police car - The one that he ''used the old fashioned way'' to catch me was last calibrated/checked for accuracy a full 6 weeks before he pulled me over.

Any advice greatly appreciated. I have the statement with me here, if need be I can type parts or all of it up if that would help?
Willis
Officer Statement;

I am an office in the Cheshire Constabulary currently stationed at ***. At approximately 10:00 hours on Thursday 29th November 2007 I was on uniform mobile patrol duties in a fully liveried Volvo V70 T5 registered number **06 ***. I was then travelling on the A538 Wilmslow Road, Wilmslow from the direction of Altringham towards Wilmslow.

My attention was then brought to a white Peugeot 205 registered number *306 *** travelling directly in front of me. This vehicle was moving to the centre of the road and appeared to be looking to overtake the vehicle in front of him. At this stage the A538 is a single carriageway with a speed limit of 40 mph and the vehicles were travelling at 40 mph.

The road then changes into a 50 mph restriction and becomes two lanes to the approach to Manchester Airport tunnels. This vehicle immediately moved into lane two and increased its speed. I matched the speed of this vehicle and maintained a constant distance behind it. I measured that this vehicle was travelling in excess of 70 mph for a distance of 0.4 miles.

I then activated me emergency equipment causing this vehicle to stop, which it did so in the car park of the Manchester Airport hotel.

The weather was fine, it was a clear day and the tunnels were well lit. There were no vehicles travelling in between my Volvo and the Peugeot. The speed restriction signs are clearly visible and lawfully placed.

I approached the driver and asked him to sit in my police vehicle. He identified himself to me as William *** DOB 16/**/19**.

I said to him ''THE REASON I HAVE STOPPED YOU IS BECAUSE YOU WERE EXCEEDING THE SPEED LIMIT''

*** was cautioned to which he replied ''I THOUGHT IT WAS A SIXTY''

I informed *** that he would be reported for the offence of speeding and issued him with an endorsable fixed penalty, E0217 ****. I made some notes on the back of this ticket, including ***'s reply to caution, which he signed. I now produce this endorsable fixed penalty ticket serial number E0217 **** as police exhibit ***/1 (Court reference...).

At approximately 13:00 hours on Saturday 6th October 2007 I carried out a speed check on the Volvo V70 T5 VRM **06 *** with the assistance of PC *** ***. I travelled at 70 mph on the A523 Silk Road, Macclesfield, between the junction of Hibel Road and Hulley Road. PC *** stationed himself in the lay by and using the speed detection device *** serial number *** monitored my speed at 70 mph from a distance of 123.6 metres. The weather was fine and dry and there were no vehicles in between myself and PC ***.
The Rookie
Do you know if he video's the 'event' as his version of events seems to vary somewhat from yours to say the least!

Simon
Willis
Nope, no video evidence or any other form of physical evidence. Just his word and his statement.

I am 100% certain of one thing... That he was not directly behind me at any point, other than the 50-100m prior to the roundabout, at which point I was braking and slowing down anyways. So if, at this point he was travelling at 70 mph behind me then he must have done very well not to run into the back of me!!! There was definately at least two vechicles behind me when I entered the tunnel, and of course, had I looked in my mirror and seen a Police car ''directly'' behind me as it apparently was, then I would have made doubley sure not to break the speed limit.

Can you see any way of me defending this succesfully going off his statement? Any weak points to it?
Willis
See the point I've quoted below - At this point, the road was single carriageway and 40 mph as he states. what he does not state, however, is that the road has four or five sweeping bends where he would have been able to see my car clearly although there were at least two vehicles in between us. Where he says I was ''moving to the center of the road and appeard to be looking to overtake'', is in fact where I was turning the CD player off and my car must have moved no more than 2 feet to the right as I was going along. I wasn't veering or about or anything like that. It's almost as if he is suggesting that I was going to drive unlawfully, as if he saw the car I was in and had some sort of misconception or pre-meditated sterotype about how I would drive it.

''My attention was then brought to a white Peugeot 205 registered number *306 *** travelling directly in front of me. This vehicle was moving to the centre of the road and appeared to be looking to overtake the vehicle in front of him. At this stage the A538 is a single carriageway with a speed limit of 40 mph and the vehicles were travelling at 40 mph''
The Rookie
To be honest he's stitched you up like a Kipper....

He has all the evidence he needs to convict you, and will be believed (99% of the time), so pleading guilty is probably the best way to minimise your punishment!

You may want to consider making a formal complaint to them detailing the errors in his statement, and how its a fabrication, on its own it won't get him disciplined, but if enough people complain it will!

Simon
Willis
Yeaha, I thought as much!!! laugh.gif

Gotta look on the brightside though really, life is too short. I mean it'll be a bit of a hinderence to lose my licence but to be honest it'll do me good I think. Firstly save money in petrol and insurance. Secondly, windfall from selling the car. And also I won't have to worry about having a drink when I go out because I won't be driving anyways.

Although part of me wants to ''stick it to the man'' and put my poiint accross. The rational side of me is saying to just give it up and re-do my test, I'd be driving again in 2-3months anyways and I wouldn't have to fork out a load on a solicitor that way either. I am definately going to write to the court or maybe Cheshire Constabulary though and indicate my dissapointment at how I've been treated and how long it has all dragged on for.

Thanks for your help Simon, much appreciated.

Will
The Rookie
No point writing to the court, but a formal complaint to the local CC is the way to go IMHO.

Simon
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.