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2and20
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2007
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A74(M) Glasgow - Carlisle, southbound carriageway near to Holms Overbridge, Beattock, Dumfries and Galloway
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Insured driver (friend of the owner)
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Driving at 85mph on 70mph motorway, police were sitting on bridge overhead and clocked me, I guess with a handheld camera. Haven't seen photos, but they got me head-on (ie. they could probably identify me driving the car).

Received NIP but no COFP so far.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but returning it unsigned. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:12:44 +0000
2and20
So as per details above, what's the best way out? It's a fair cop as I was probably speeding, but would like to keep a clean driving license, also don't want to go to court as live a LONG way from the area where the offence took place...

If i stall them for 6 months do they have to drop it? Any other way out? Traffic was fairly heavy at the time I seem to remember, if that makes a difference.

Cheers guys!
The Rookie
Return the S172 form nominating your self but leaving it unsigned, they may try and send round some local BiB (One case in the midlands) but they may not.

If the BiB do turn up you need to ask them expressly if they have the aurthority to make an S172 request for this offence in another forces area, if they can't don't say yes they do, then you have no need to answer (even if they did have the authority, if they can't say they have then you have no need to reply!).

Simon
zoo tv glasgow
I've went down the unsigned route and the BiB have been round the house already, even left a note asking me to contact PC Plod to resolve the matter regarding a road traffic offence.

I await the "Wanted" posters with my picture and a "Reward £60 + 3 Points"
Cripes
It seems the luck of the draw in Scotland.

My case apparently 'timed out' after I went unsigned in Northern Region - plod in other Scottish areas vary in their persistence and tenacity in pursuing us 'hardened crims'.

Good luck...
Wallace Stewart
I went unsigned 85/70 M74, live long way from Scotland, no visit from local bobbies as they were probably doing proper police work involving actual criminals - timed out - scot free, and it doesn't get any better than that
Monster 900
QUOTE (Wallace Stewart @ Fri, 23 Nov 2007 - 15:52) *
I went unsigned 85/70 M74, live long way from Scotland, no visit from local bobbies as they were probably doing proper police work involving actual criminals ....................................................


I guess you don't live in Wales then.
2and20
thanks for the replies guys...i sent them a letter asking for photo evidence saying i wasnt sure who was driving, figured that would buy me a little more time...got the photos back, couldn't be clearer it was me (lol!) and a sternly worded letter saying i had 14 days to return it (bit harsh as its over xmas and i could have been away), and claim they will "strictly adhere to the time scales laid down".

i'll wait a few days and send it back unsigned. 2 months done so far, 4 or 5 more to go!

as a slight aside, i was thinking as we have quite a few named drivers on the car...could the owner have sent the police to one of the named drivers, who then sends them to another named driver, who then sends them to ANOTHER named driver (ending with the one who actually did the "alleged" speeding), all taking the full 28 days of course...would that stall the police for long enough, or would they just get annoyed and try and prosecute the owner????
The Rookie
You could do that, but it could be classed as conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, landing the whole ring with a MANDATORY jail term, so if you think that's better than £60/3pts then thats your choice!

Simon
2and20
surely they couldn't do that?
Barking Mad
QUOTE (2and20 @ Tue, 1 Jan 2008 - 00:58) *
surely they couldn't do that?


Listen, mate, the Police can and do do what they like nowadays - no questions asked!

They summarily execute people getting on trains in London for suspiciously getting on a bus beforehand whilst going to work (presumably, the man concerned could not afford the £2,000 a year congestion charge and was being a completely uncooperative nob by not allowing himself to be fleeced like this or better still opened up to £100 fines for overlooking the charge one day) and there is actually no systemic failings in their procedures! It was only eight bullets, I think.

They want your cash. Plotting with others with a view to prevent them extracting 3 twenties from your wallet IS more of a crime than telling them as an example - for a laugh - that an odd fellow called Stephan Kiszcko (who used to actually do benign things like write down strange cars' registration numbers) exposed himself when a 12 year old got murdered. Kiszcko had never behaved in this way in reality but he still got life and spent the last 16 of his final 17 years inside because the relevant plod needed a clear up... and the 3 girls who conspired - "for a laugh" - to lie to them and the courts have not been pursued at all... Presumably because getting an innocent man locked up for 16 years - for a laugh - (as well as denying the family of the murdered 12 year old timely justice) is no real concern of the public?

What I'm trying to say is don't ever think that the Police will allow you to get away with not stumping up for their orphan fund. It's all just a question of cash and doughnuts and the required clear up rates and targets.

If you don't like it, make sure you do actually go and vote and don't vote Labour at the next election! Simple. Hold these people to account.
The Rookie
BM's usual rant aside, of coures they can, what you suggest IS a conspiracy to pervert and it DOES carry a mandatory jail term, there have been at least three cases I know of in the last year (the plod like to get them in the press!)

Simon
Keds
any way out.....yes of course there is, you were caught speeding, you don't deny it, by the sounds of things the police have done every thing by the book, the pictures are you.....the way out out is to take it on the chin, accept the points, you were speeding and were unlucky to be caught. Take the consequences of your actions.

If the police had not followed due processes and there was any doubt, then by all means do your utmost to avoid the points, but this is as far as I can see quite cut and dry.

I have also heard of quite a number of people who have gone out of their way to avoid a few points and are now languishing in prison.
Naga Shadow
QUOTE (Keds @ Tue, 1 Jan 2008 - 18:00) *
I have also heard of quite a number of people who have gone out of their way to avoid a few points and are now languishing in prison.


Do you have any actual info on these cases and not just what you have heard? I would be quite interested to see just what they did to get themselves in that predicament.
This is in connection with a possible pending case

Thanks

Jon
Barking Mad
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 1 Jan 2008 - 07:05) *
BM's usual rant aside....... {snip}


The only reason why I rant about what is going on is because too many of us (the public) are being theived from and suffer in silence, cussing behind closed doors at what a complete abuse of the Judicial system is taking place.

I "rant" because I love my country. Because I really don't want the police's reputation to become so badly damaged by their misuse by the executive of government to lose all the respect they need to do the job. And I mean do the job!

Each of us can't be everywhere to decide what is right and what is wrong - to "judge our peers"... So we delegate this 'to the authorities' in the hope that FAIRNESS and NATURAL JUSTICE will be dispensed on our behalves by the said authority!

Such a shame that they don't go after muggers, rapists, petty thieves, nonce cases, white collar crime, etc, etc, etc, etc the way they pursue ordinary people for money for what really are minor "technical" transgressions of the Law!

Why's that?

Is it because catching a thief leaving a store, a factory or someone's house involves real work rather than pressing buttons on what is nothing more than a well oiled cash machine?

The reason why I - and I presume the vast majority of other people TECHNICALLY break the Law is because in the real world there are copious shades of grey between black and white.

Is 3 points and £60 as a fine really equitable between someone doing 35 in a 30 at 4 in the morning and someone else doing 45 at 4 in the afternoon past a school?

The police service has lost its discretion and "Robocop" is going into meltdown because, as the late Paul Smith always said: They are measuring what is easy to measure!

40mph on the M1 near here on a hoare-frosty morning at 4am would be dangerous yet legal... On the same stretch of road in 6 months' time; the sun will have been up 3 hours on an empty motorway. 120mph at the same time in the morning then would almost certainly be safer than 40mph is now. Cameras can not make this judgement - people can - and that is why there are no speed cameras on motorways in the winter!

The public in this country are apathetic, leaving someone else to do the job for them - which is why the country has gone to pot and the traffic police & ticket offices are currently just like a cancer is to a healthy body - attacking the wrong things! The pen is mightier than the sword. I love my country and I would like this changed for the good of all of us.

That is why I press the supperating wound and urge the victims of this State abuse to get writing to their MPs to put them (the MPs) on notice. Notice that if something is not done about this policy, their snouts will be taken out of the troughs!

Write to your MP about the current policy of "stand and deliver" and let him (or her) know that you will vote for anyone else who will do something about this to change matters.


Keds
The one case that springs to mind, is the one where a couple were facing a ban, both were on points that if either of them pleaded guilty they would be banned.

So, they decided to blame the whole thing on a Eastern European employee of there's, who had conveniently returned home. The employee did really exist, but was unaware as to what was going on.

One even flew out to this Eastern European country and sent a letter back to the themselves, apologising in that they might have been caught speeding and if anything comes through, then they were to blame.

The couple submitted the defence to the police, one policeman decided to do a few checks, unearthed what had happened and the couple were convicted of perverting the course of justice. Both were sent to prison.

I'll try to dig out the details of the others cases, just to ensure my facts are correct.

Naga Shadow
That was a bit extreme on their part (my own view) I certainly would not go that far. I'm just interested in the time out part and whether or not the BiB will try to 'visit' in other EU countries, providing they know where to look of course!
mob
QUOTE (Naga Shadow @ Tue, 1 Jan 2008 - 18:09) *
QUOTE (Keds @ Tue, 1 Jan 2008 - 18:00) *
I have also heard of quite a number of people who have gone out of their way to avoid a few points and are now languishing in prison.


Do you have any actual info on these cases and not just what you have heard? I would be quite interested to see just what they did to get themselves in that predicament.
This is in connection with a possible pending case

Thanks

Jon


Here are a couple

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/7132985.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/7109095.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7022184.stm
Barking Mad
OK, I'll try not "rant" about it - just tell it the way it is. Sorry, I've thought about it a few seconds and the steam is bubbling away.

THEFT in thic country is only allowed if the police or some other power-pissed authority (such as court baliffs) do it.

Blatent theft of someone else's property will be met by the local desk sergent with "Were you insured ('cause we don't give two monkeys - our boys are busy developing film for the orphans' fund)?

I'm sorry I can't post "sensible" observations about what is going on because what is going on is not sensible!!!!

People "trade" points on their licences because if they lose them they can't work AND WILL LOSE THIER HOMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The sad truth is that you can get pissed up and go and vandalise what you can't steal and if - yes IF - you get caught, you will be treated by the courts as "misunderstood" or "undereducated"... If you are unlucky enough (as the vast, vast, vast majority are) to be caught a handful of mph over the posted speed limit (which is almost cedrtain to have been set 20 mph to slow in any case) you run the chance of losing your home.

ERM, tell me, someone... Why do people "trade" points then?????? Why do people come on here to air "If I say this... "If I ask my boss to say that... "If I say it was my mate from Outer Mongolia...

Ordinary people - not nutcases by any stretch of the imagination - are losing their licences and livelihoods on technicalities whilst chavs (who have never done a day's work in their lives) STILL THIEVE AND MISBEHAVE! Nothing gets done about it.

And no one is supposed to raise an eyebrow? Steady on old chaps: Frightfully not good sport, what, what.

AND for what it's worth let's just look at the penalties for these crimes of not confessing now: Man and wife REALLY don't know who was driving - the RK is pursecuted and might get 6 points... and faces the dilema of "Own up - EVEN THOUGH YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHO WAS DRIVING - and just get 3" (get of lightly, eh?)

But deal drugs to the local school kids and you should only get a caution!!! Think this is a "rant" too? Read about one of the Police's most valiant enforcer's views are about what the best cure for a headache is here!

The lunatics have taken over the asylum!

Don't suffer in silence. COMPLAIN! Do so loudly and make it uncomfortable for them when you do.

As an individual someone like me is a "ranting nutter". But how long would this go on if every contributor on this board COMPLAINED to his MP with the ultimatum "Stop this now or you will be collecting a P45 sometime soon, no later than June 2010 at the latest"
2and20
wow, sounds like you have a view!!

anyway, back to my pending ticket...sent it back unsigned, and have just had it returned to me asking for it to be signed within 14 days...is this the point where i just ignore it????

if they issue me a court summons, what happens then? do i have to go or can i just plead guilty without going (i live hundreds of miles from where i was "speeding"). and if i do get a summons and then plead guilty, do i still get 3 points, or is it 6 points then? i dont really give a toss about a bigger fine from a court summons as opposed to a fixed penalty notice, as money is not the issue here, it's the points i really don't want.

appreciate everyone's input!!
Glacier2
No one has ever been taken to court for going unsigned in Scotland. The speeding is a dead duck as without a signed confession they have no evidence. I would just sit back and ignore at this point in time.

Where are you based in England? I have heard of D&G scammers sending local BiB round to extract a confession. This in itself is on shaky ground as do local BiB have the authority to make a S172 request on behalf of another force area.

Sit tight and the whole thing should timeout in due course.
2and20
Cool I'm liking the sound of this. Live in London and unfortunately work from home so if they send someone round they'll prob catch me unfortunately. Anything I can say to get out of it if they come round.
Errol_finn
Hello,

just wanted to see you you were getting on, and whether or not the scammers had sent the BiB round?
2and20
nearly clear on this...am past the 6 months but still have the extra s172 thingy to time out...will keep everyone posted! never heard a thing from them after i ignored 2 fairly threatening letters after my signature...
2and20
ALL CLEAR!! My original offence was late October (not November as I put in the info at the top, just to try and stay anonymous), so it's all timed out including the s172, happy days!

I basically filled in the original form they sent me (after faffing around getting photos which clear as day showed me driving over the limit at 84 on the motorway), didn't sign it, they sent me two fairly threatening letters asking for my signature which I ignored, then heard nothing from them again.

Thanks to all, especially the folk at Pepipoo...I know you don't do it to help genuine cases of speeding avoid the penalties, but I'm happy anyway to still have a clean driving license despite being caught fair and square.
The Rookie
Well done, one for success stories!

Simon
Faraway
Well done but next time you go through D&G territory I bet you do so at the correct MPH particularly near any overbridges.
Argyll
QUOTE (2and20 @ Sun, 25 May 2008 - 15:50) *
nearly clear on this...am past the 6 months but still have the extra s172 thingy to time out...will keep everyone posted! never heard a thing from them after i ignored 2 fairly threatening letters after my signature...


I'm not sure what you mean by the "S172 thingy"? I thought you were clear from the date of the original offence?
nemo
QUOTE (Argyll @ Sun, 6 Mar 2011 - 19:37) *
I'm not sure what you mean by the "S172 thingy"? I thought you were clear from the date of the original offence?

There are two offences which would need to 'time out' - 1) the alleged speeding offence, and 2) failing to provide driver details (the latter being deemed as being committed 28 days after service of a valid s.172 request ('the 's.172 thingy').

Accordingly, an offence of failing to furnish would be time barred 28 days plus 6 months after service of the s.172 request.

Bearing in mind this thread is now more than 2½ years old, I think it's safe to say that the OP heard nothing more.




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