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Daivid
Hi,

Regarding deciding how to proceed when having received an NIP, can anyone help with what I'm seeing as a conflict between the idea of avoiding making matters worse in failing to provide the driver ID, and the idea of keeping the there-isn't-any-evidence option? The third bullet-point in "Read This First - What you should do first" says not to fill anything in until you're sure it's the best course of action:
QUOTE
  • DO NOT do anything until you have sought advice from the members of this forum or legal advice from a specialist motoring solicitor. There is a list of specialist solicitors further down.
  • DO NOT dispose of anything, including the envelope that the original NIP came in.
  • DO NOT fill out any forms including the NIP. DO NOT send anything or sign anything until you are sure it is the best action to take.
  • DO NOT lie or provide the police with information that you do not believe to be true. There have been several cases where people have been convicted for perjuring themselves in motoring cases, and the punishment is likely to be far more severe than for the original offence
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...rticle&id=3


Yet, on the main site, in "Law - Theory: Section 172" it says:
QUOTE
If the keeper fails to name the driver, they may be liable to prosecution and the punishment could be worse than for the speeding offence, i.e. 6 points, a fine and costs. From 24 September 2007 the penalty for failure to comply with S 172 goes up from 3 to 6 points: Road Safety Act 2006 section 29.
http://www.pepipoo.com/Section_172.htm

And, again on the main site, in "The Law - Reality: Disclosure", about the issue of evidence, it says:
QUOTE
If the CPS continue NOT to provide you with the evidence, go to court, or ask your solicitor to go on your behalf, and get the case thrown out as "there isn't any evidence".
http://www.pepipoo.com/Disclosure.htm#Legal_Position



So, when is returning the NIP the best action to take? By returning the correctly filled in NIP are you not providing the police/CPS with evidence of guilt (if you are both the registered keeper and the driver), in the form of a signed confession?!

And, something that's just occurred to me: Do the police benefit from fines resulting from NIP-failure-to-declare-identity convictions, as I gather they do in the case of speeding convictions? In other words, do the police have an incentive to try to obtain the speeding conviction in favour of obtaining a prosecution for failure to identify, or vice-versa?

I'd appreciate any advice.
Muggerbee
Returning the s172 declaration is currently not an option it's a neccesity, not neccesarily on the
the supplied form but in a legally acceptable format. so long as all is in order.

The reason you have 28 days to return it is to allow you to get advice, so complet the NIP wizard
post the results here and you'll get advice, worse case scenario you have another 28 days without
points, best case there may be something that you can do to help yourself.
andy_foster
Once you have provided admissible evidence of the driver's identity, you cannot easily take it back.

When the penalty for failing to provide the driver's details was 3 points, it was often better to take that hit than face a speeding conviction for a high speed.
Now that the penalty is 6 points, it is probably only worthwhile remaining silent if the speeding is likely to result in a ban.
Daivid
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2007
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A412 Rickmansworth Road, Watford, opp J/W The Chase
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Do not recall seeing a flash go off, but am not doubting the validity of the allegation. Time of alleged offence was 5.53am.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 09:47:16 +0000
The Rookie
Its always worth asking for photo's 'to help confirm the drivers ID' (not evidence!) as at worst you get a souvenir!

Simon
Daivid
Thanks for the feedback, all, appreciate it.

I've returned the NIPs I've received - yes, "NIPs" plural: I received three in an eleven-day period.

I'll post again with any developments.
The Rookie
THREE.........do the wizard for the other 2 in case there are fatal errors...

If you've been driving less than 2 years start getting licence application forms filled in.

Simon
Daivid
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2007
Date of the NIP: - 22 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 24 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A412 Rickmansworth Road, Watford., Northeast of the J/W Cas
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Driver
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Do not recall seeing a flash go off, but am not doubting the validity of the allegation. I think the location is A412 Rickmansworth Road, Watford, Northeast of the junction with Cassio Road.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:25:51 +0000

The NIP wizard topics for other two NIPs can be seen here: NIP Dilemma | 43 in a 30 - 1 of 3 NIPs in 11 days
Daivid
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2007
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A412 Rickmansworth Road, Watford, opp J/W The Chase
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - 43 in a 30. Do not recall seeing a flash go off, but am not doubting the validity of the allegation.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 13:30:46 +0000

The NIP wizard topics for other two NIPs can be seen here: 45 in a 30 - 1 of 3 NIPs in 11 days | NIP Dilemma
Daivid
I've now received COFPs for the three NIPs I mention on this forum 43 in a 30, 45 in a 30, and this topic, each comprising three points/£60.

I am keen not to pay fines and acquire points, and I'm particularly keen not to have as many as nine points on my license. I consider myself an experienced, safe driver. Indeed, I drive for a living as I expect many members do.

I would appreciate any advice on how to manage this situation, including any opinions about the likelihood of success in gambling upon any summonses being received outside the six-month limit.

I do not tailgate, I do not cut up, I do not cross box junctions and "Keep Clear" zones until I can exit, I have the utmost respect for other motorists' rights, I am a courteous driver and I find the idea that I'm a bad driver because I drive fast infantile.
The Rookie
I would always advocate
1/ Write and ask for "photo's to help ID the driver", it may highlight a problem, at worst you get a souvenir (don't ask for evidence)
2/ Reply giving all the info they want in a letter (inc ref numbers) so they can't use image recognition software on your form and have to work for a living!

Simon
Daivid
I've now received reminders, following the three COFPs I mention in the previous post, giving me seven days to pay up and send off my license or the allegations will be considered for court proceedings.

I have no intention of paying up or receiving points on my license, yet am at a loss as to how one can defend against photographic evidence. Am I reliant solely on some inefficiency in the administration, by the police, of bringing complaints to court? I repeat the request for advice I made in my previous post.
Keds
"I have no intention of paying up or receiving points on my license, yet am at a loss as to how one can defend against photographic evidence. Am I reliant solely on some inefficiency in the administration, by the police, of bringing complaints to court?"

I am amazed at your last post. You've been caught speeding 3 times in a very short space of time and yet you suggest you have no intention of paying up or receiving points....why not?

If the police have not followed the correct processes or the CPS have not done what they should, then by all means, dispute the charges. If everything has been done above board....then accept the consequences.

Ask for photo's if that proves it was either you or your wife, then take the consequences



Daivid
QUOTE (Keds @ Thu, 10 Jan 2008 - 12:34) *
If the police have not followed the correct processes or the CPS have not done what they should, then by all means, dispute the charges. If everything has been done above board....then accept the consequences.


Everything so far appears to be by-the-book. If I'm to rely upon the CPS not doing what they should at any point I'll presumably need to be at the post-summons stage anyway. Which leaves me to gamble on evidence not being produced in time for any court proceedings. I need to weigh up whether to take that gamble or pay up. Are there any stats on what percentage of camera-based speeding cases get thrown out for lack of evidence? Of course, it's all a bit academic as I've provided signed confessions (S172) for each allegation.
borsicorn
Something a bit odd here.

3 separate NIPs and you don't recall being flashed in any of them.

Could your vehicle have been cloned?

You'd soon see that by requesting copies of photographs to help identify the driver.

Make sure that you comply with s.172 requirements, but don't rush to incriminate yourself if you truly believe that you may have been innocent.

Only you know, really.
Daivid
QUOTE (Daivid @ Sun, 18 Nov 2007 - 12:59) *
I've returned the NIPs I've received


I'm sure all three NIPs are valid. I'm trying, as I assume most members are, to find any way possible around paying fines and receiving points.

Can I obtain the photographs having already ID-ed myself as the driver?
borsicorn
Not without risking jail for attempting to pervert the course of justice, I'm afraid.

If it was you, you have been caught.

If it wasn't you, why did you complete the NIPs saying it was?

I think you have now agreed that it was you, so I wouldn't waste your time and money, but it's your call.

Yes, a request should provide the photos.
Daivid
QUOTE
You've been caught speeding 3 times in a very short space of time and yet you suggest you have no intention of paying up or receiving points....why not?


Throwing away our freedom
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