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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
pickle
Hi,

Been reading lots of info on this site and some others and it all sounds very interesting!

Basically I received a pile of letters from Roxburghe at the weekend, total around £1000.

These refer to "Offences" dated end of 06 and beginning of 07. I don't know the nature of these as I don't have the original "Charge Notices", but they are probably parking on grass, not in proper parking bay, parking in visitor car-park - limited parking spaces and trying to get to work for the organisation that is indirectly bringing debt collectors in. I would think the original invoice was thrown in the bin after argueing with the car park staff.

Firstly, I received the letter as the registered keeper, however I was not the driver, so I guess that's that then?

Not got a scanner here, so I'll quote the details.

I've marked some areas in red which I guess are misleading and basically harassment?

Should I write back to them or wait for another letter? The info on this site implies that they are wasting their time, and any correspondence is a waste of mine. I know I'm safe because I wasn't the driver and hence didn't agree to anything. However £1000 is a lot of money if they find out who was.

A bit of reassurance needed!!!!

Thanks



QUOTE
Roxburghe DEBT COLLECTORS PO BOX 342 SURREY KT14 6YX

Roxburghe (UK) Limited Acting on behalf of NCP Services Limited
Charge No:
Vehincle Reg No:
Date of Offence:
Amount:

Tel No. 01932 332048

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO REGISTERED KEEPER

Failure to pay this parking fine immediately, without reasonable excuse, could lead to legal proceedings being issued.

You have been sent this Notice because you are the registered keeper of vehicle Registration No xxxx on xxxx. On that date the vehicle was seen at xxxx.

Charge Notice numbered xxxx was issued informing the driver that a Parking Charge had been incurred.

If payment is made in accordance with the directions below, proceedings will not be taken and any person's liability will be discharged.

PAYMENT SHOULD BE MADE IMMEDIATELY. CHEQUES AND POSTAL ORDERS MUST BE FOR THE FULL AMOUNT DUE. THE AMOUNT DUE NOW INCLUDES AND ADMINISTRATION CHARGE DUE TO YOUR FAILURE TO PAY WITHIN THE TIME SPECIFIED ON THE CHARGE. ALL PAYMENTS MUST BE SENT TO THE ABOVE ADDRESS (please quote our reference of xxxx on all communications with this office).

I ENCLOSE REMITTANCE OF £80.00 IN SETTLEMENT OF THE ABOVE PARKING CHARGE. I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT PAYMENT ENSURES THAT LEGAL PROCEEDINGS WILL NOT BE TAKEN. CHEQUES SHOUD BE MADE PAYABLE TO ROXBURGHE (UK) LTD.


.... payment bit....

Full Terms and Conditions are available upon receipt of a £10 administration fee.
A Copy of the Ticket can be obtained for you upon receipt of a £10 administration fee.

Roxburghe (UK) Limited
Registered Office: Kings Parade, Lower Coombe Street, Croydon, Surrey, CR0 1AA
Registered in England: Reg No 3137269
bama
usual B/S for Roxburghe.
They just playing you as they see a big fish and if they can con you out of your money it will up their percentages.
As you have read around you will know the usual advice. as they are seeking a large amount perhaps this is one that should have a signed for delivery letter back to Roxkburghe along the lines of. (I am not a lawyer so a legal eagle's version may be a better bet)

"I have recieved your demands for money ref xxxxxx.
On what basis do you believe there is any contract between myself and NCP on whose behalf you are acting ?
This alleged debt is disputed which means that you have to refer this issue back NCP.
Any further contact from Roxburghe on this matter will be considered harrasment and if such contact is made I will seek redress, inter alia, under the Administration of Justice Act 1971.

Yours"
pickle
Well, it would appear that the hospital managers have got involved and the word is that all parking charges will be removed for all staff!

Spoke to the local paper who should be doing a nice article on the matter.
bama
keep an eye out for the paper article. most reporters, local OR national, seem to be incapable of getting the facts right around parking. e.g. "Fines".


maybe one of the managers got a set of invoices him/her/self ... smile.gif
pickle
Well here's the statement

QUOTE
It has come to the Trust’s attention that many staff, visitors and patients have received letters from a debt collection agency acting on behalf of NCP.

The Trust received no advance notification that this was about to happen and we have therefore requested that these notices be retracted on this occasion. We regret that this situation has arisen and the distress it has caused.

It should be noted that NCP continues to manage the Trust’s car parks and is authorised to issue notices for illegal parking, non-payment of which will be pursued following discussion with NCP.

If you have any further questions on this matter then please contact NCP on 0845 260 8100.


I notice they say NCP can still issue notices for illegal parking. Is it "illegal parking"?
bama
I am not a lawyer - but NO.

send an e-mail to trust querying what laws are applicable.. smile.gif
pickle
It's in tomorrows paper so I'll take a look and link it up if it's on their website.
The Rookie
Also as its contract law, they can't issue 'fines'...so that kind of shoots the whole scam in the foot really...

Simon
pickle
News article is up

Link to NHS parking / debt collectors article

I notice in their quoted comments that they still refer to illegal parking. What was disappointing was that the paper chose to not print any of the stuff that I repeated from here, and made no mention of the fact that PPCs cannot fine you.

Maybe anyone reading this would like to drop a comment on the page.
SAMKAL
Hi Pickle,

Could I ask did you get the notice at Hull Royal?

Much appreciated if you let me know as I got two letters for 80 + 80 pounds dating 18 months back.

thanks
pickle
They were from both HR and CH. You've got nothing to worry about as all charges are being retracted, and besides even if they weren't, a quick scout round this site will show you didn't have much to worry about to begin with!
pickle
I was thinking about circulating an email amongst the staff. Does someone want to look over and correct?

QUOTE
For future reference and charges from the carpark company / debt collectors regarding parking.

The carpark is run by a private company. There is nothing official about them - their powers a no greater than any single individual.

Parking charges with a private parking company (PPC) requires a contract. Contracts are usually made verbally or in writing, however with the prominent display of signs around private carparks it could be implied that you entered a contract by parking and accepting those terms.

If you do not abide by the clauses of the contract (the parking sign) you are in breach of contract. In cases of breach of contract, the defendent can seek damages. Damages amount to the actual loss that the company makes due to the breach. ie. You park across the lines taking a second bay, you pay £2 to park for the day, the company has lost £2 from the other space, and hence could seek £2 of damages.

Under contract law a company can not "fine" you. Neither have you committed an "offence". The parking ticket is purely an invoice for the disputed costs under the breach of contract. You do not have to pay it.

For the company to seek damages they would have to take you to court. Passing on to a debt collection agency makes no difference - they have the same powers as NCP, which is the same powers as you have. It's like you sticking a sign on your drive and say "Pulling in to this drive will incur a charge of £50" - if you asked anyone for money, they would laugh at you - this is no different.

Subsequent letters from the PPC or the Debt Collector will be intended to intimidate you and scare you into paying, using things like "legal proceedings", "failing to pay", "affect credit rating" etc., and general adding £20 after each refusal. If they continue to do this it could be classed as harassment.

Also letters are generally sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle, as they obtain the information from the DVLA (write to your MP about this as it's appauling that they sell your details). The registered keeper has not entered into any contract with the PPC, it is the driver.

In the very unlikely event that someone tried to take you to court, they would

a) have to prove beyond reasonable doubt, who the driver of the vehicle was.
b) prove that you (the driver) entered a contract with them simply because they put a sign up
c) made losses of the amount claimed due to your breach of contract


If you'd like to read a much more in depth version of the above with the legal bits have a look hear - http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=56

If you do receive an "invoice" in the future and are still worried head to Pepipoo and hopefully you will have the help you need.

HOWEVER NOTE : A ticket from the council, police, or a railway carpark is an offence under the Road Traffic Act, and must be acted upon unless you have ground for appeal.
g_attrill
In a civil court the burden of proof is "on the balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". It is the grey area of private parking that does interest me, would the court believe that the RK was the driver "on the balance of probabilities" unless the RK says they weren't?
Arragonis
Pickle : All credit to you for warning other staff, the email looks good - maybe a spell check (Appauling for example).

I would re-arrange it a little, something like :

Heading - DO NOT PAY.

1. If you get a ticket, its an invoice not a ticket.
2. Mention no power to enforce, contract etc.
3. Ticket sent to RK - mention DVLA and complaint to your MP.
4. If there was a contract its with the driver not RK. RK has no responsibility to tell them who.
5. CCJ needed if they are going to collect, otherwise in dispute etc.
6. Send them here for any further advice.
7. Maybe ask if people get them to obtain an washed copy, it would be interesting to see their varied tactics for B&B.

One other thought, does the trust have a grievance procedure ? If so recommend people who get a ticket to take it up as a grievance as these have to be investigated by a senior manager and are usually "official". I'm sure if senior managers find themselves having to deal with one each time a ticket is issued they would get pretty fed up with the waste of time quite quickly.

Disclaimer - I'm not a HR expert.
jdfi
QUOTE (Arragonis @ Tue, 23 Oct 2007 - 11:10) *
1. If you get a ticket, its an invoice not a ticket.



Maybe emphasise further that this is very different to a police/council ticket
pickle
Look North (the local BBC news for those that aren't from the area) have covered it today.

Here's the video feed

I notice that the spokeperson once again states "people have been given fines (stutter) parking charges have been given them because they've parked illegally"
Teufel
nice to see a proivate company inventing and enforcing its own regime
of criminal justice !
battyboomboom
The 2nd person: "Well obviously I don't want to have a black mark against my name from a debt collecting agency, that would mark my credit rating. You know, that would be awful, I'd be really really upset if that happened"

And the BBC make no effort to correct this blatantly false representation of what could happen, shock horror. rolleyes.gif

To reiterate:
Only courts can issue fines
A Debt Collecting Agency cannot touch your credit rating
A CCJ would only be a black mark if you failed to pay it within 28 days
A CCJ can only be awarded against you if you fail to defend the case, or in the unlikely event that you ignored all of Pepipoo's advice

The above assumes the PPC take the correct person to court wink.gif
pickle
I did write to the BBC to say how disappointed I was that they didn't take the opportunity to reveal the scam, and that they should have consulted their legal team.

Not heard back yet, but when/if I do I'll let you know.
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