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Full Version: The Filth and the Fury - New numberplate laws?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
callumw
As you may have gathered from the title ... I've been stopped by the police for ...... an illegal numberplate? blink.gif

The plates are 6 years old and are the right size, font and spacing, but because it doesn't have a VRM blah de blah mark on it it's no longer legal?

Been given a ticket for a fine to be paid in 28 days. No points and no MOT stamp is required (i.e. revenue ticket)

Apparently a legislation was passed in September that all cars must have the mark shown on the plate so it can be read by the automatic numberplate recognition cameras.

This could affect a lot of us on here

Even though my car is not EU approved (Jap grey import) and is/was exempt to some of these rules (e.g. I could legally have a much smaller plate on the front), he said that it no longer matters and my car doesn't have the mark on the plate and therefore it's illegal and won't be read by the cameras

He also said my plate wasn't reflective ... which it ******* is angry.gif
His car couldn't pick up the plate, but maybe because my car is dusty/dirty? Still easily human readable tho
I've been stop checked before and other Jam Sandwiches could read it fine?

Needless to say, I'm not a happy bunny


You may at this point be thinking
"Wow. Supercop vision spotted no kite mark was visible on the numberplate as he passed by"

I was Stopped and asked "am I in a Hurry?"
"No" says I, "I'm just cruising towards home"
"What's that" says Bill, "You're late for something?"
"Nooooo" says I, "I said I'm just cruising home"
"Cruising? Really?" says Bill, "Don't worry, we have all the evidence on camera"
"eh?" says me.

If that was true then he's have a very nice bit of footage of me cruising at the speed limit for my 6 mile journey before they stopped me (don't know where they started following me)
Stupid Police trying to play their psychological mind games to make me go on the defensive.
Not ******* impressed mad.gif

I kept my cool and was polite and chatty. Eventually he came round and said that a lot of Subarus being stolen at the moment and so he's stopping every one of them tonight.

So it's gone from Speeding (which didn't happen) to a fine for the numberplate (he only looked after I contested what he said) to a stop-check... but you're getting the fine anyway.


Have to say, I do try to abide by the law. I pay my taxes, am a decent human being, I even put wide numberplates on my car that restricts 50% airflow to my oil and transmission coolers, but still the people you pay to protect you come along and **** on you, just because they can
icon_hang.gif
bama
what exactly was it he didn't like about the plates ?
having trouble with following the "because it doesn't have a VRM blah de blah"
if the plates are legal surely this can be won.
Fredd
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 22 Oct 2007 - 10:19) *
what exactly was it he didn't like about the plates ?
having trouble with following the "because it doesn't have a VRM blah de blah"
if the plates are legal surely this can be won.

Particularly since the the VRM is what's generally known as the vehicle's registration number.
roythebus
From what I understand as long as the lettering is of the correct font style, height, width, spacing and is legible, I don't see what his problem is.

There is a requirement for reflective numberplates to be fitted to vehicles manufactured after a certain date, and that they be kept clean and legible.

I still run around in vintage vehicles with hand painted number plates with no problem.
callumw
Sorry - I meant it didn't have the BS number on them because I had them made 6 years ago - before the law came in about requiring a BS kite.

Still were legal tho.

Someone on a car forum came up with a good idea:
QUOTE
Perhaps the next course of action is to take the car to an MOT station and get them to verify that the plates are appropriate? If they do, then you are vindicated and you write to the old bill - and politely state the plates have been confirmed as valid and therefore there is no case to answer, and that they should jog on?


I'll do that this weekend cool.gif
bama
Did you buy the plate from the DVLA ?
Viz:- http://vrm-group.co.uk/registration-marks/regmarks.htm
callumw
Yes I did. Cost £400 many moons ago

The one thing I forgot to mention (kinda important) was that he said that if you get 2 of these fines (or was it 3?) then the DVLA will nullify your plate and issue you a Q plate instead ohmy.gif
bama
were those moons before 2001 ?
jeffreyarcher
You could try PMing Gareth Attrill. ISTR that he's familiar with this sort of stuff.
The Rookie
The offence being referred to is that it doesn't have the British standards mark on it, you can't buy 'plates' from DVLA just the number that goes on it, so I assume the number plate was made elsewhere...

I'm not sure how long the BS mark has been a legal requirement but pretty sure its since 2001, so of course if your car is younger than that then it MUST have had the plates made since unless 'personalised' plates were physically removed from one car to the next.

It would help if you could tell us more, as these dates are all critical (when you first owned the number and had plates made, how old the car is, whether they were made new or transferred phyiscally etc).

What gave him cause to check the plates? as clearly he wouldn't see the BS mark from a follow!

The fact the car may pass an MOT is not an indication that the plates are legal!

Simon
callumw
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 23 Oct 2007 - 11:16) *
It would help if you could tell us more, as these dates are all critical (when you first owned the number and had plates made, how old the car is, whether they were made new or transferred phyiscally etc).

Car is coming up 1 yr old.
Bought the mark and plates mid 2001 - for my 30th birthday

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 23 Oct 2007 - 11:16) *
What gave him cause to check the plates? as clearly he wouldn't see the BS mark from a follow!

His cam system couldn't read the plate so he said the spacing is illegal.
Had word back from a Copper dude on a car club I belong to. He said the spacing isn't quite 100% but it's so marginal that it shouldn't have warrented a ticket.

I've been stopped lots in the last 6 years and this is the first I've heard of it
reginald
Here is a link to the relevant Law I think and on reading through it does state that the specification must be identified on the plate. It doesn't say if it's got to be on the front or back of the plate as I read it so perhaps you could just print a label with the spec on and stick it the back of the plate. (Bottom of page 12)

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2001/uksi_20010561_en.pdf
g_attrill
I've re-read the relevant parts of SI 2001:561 and from what I understanf, any vehicle first registered after 1973 must have either BSAU145d or BSAU145a on the plate, and any plate made after 09/2001 must have BSAU 145d. (They must be compliant with those standards too, of course!)

It is pretty much impossible for the ANPR to detect the absense of such a mark, it might be told them it was getter poor reflectivity though. I don't doubt they told you it could detect that though, some officers lack basic knowledge about how their equipment works.
bama
sorry for stating the obvious...

the regs on page 12 says :
"The plate must be made of retroreflecting material which, as regards its construction, colour and
other qualities, complies with the requirements of—"

my emphasis.

do the requirements state that the plates must carry the BS mark or comply with the BS standard.
I haven't got a copy of the BS doc but
<a href="http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/leaflets/v796.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/leaflets/v796.pdf</a>
also says the plates must conform - not that they must carry the mark.

I haven't read all of The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks)
Regulations 2001 but the word kite sure ain't in there.
it does say
"No material other than a registration mark may be displayed on a registration plate
except material complying with the requirements of any of the relevant standards mentioned
in Schedule 2."

Schedule 2 contains text about compliance..

So where is it mandated that the plate must carry a kite mark ?
the only place I can think of in the BS standard itself.
IF so is the lack of the BS stamp enough to make the plate non BS compliant ?
I thought the BS mark was an entitlement not mandatory.

Update the Kitemark is merely a trademark of the BSI
http://www.bsi-global.com/en/Legal/Copyright/

So AFAICS there is no legal requirement for a kitemark on a number plate.

I am not a lawyer so stand to be corrected.
Barking Mad
So much for not being able to buy plates without these marks or for nefarious reasons.....

Anyone can buy any plate they like in any style they might want from the Republic of Ireland via the net "no questions asked"!

So when the vast majority of us who would be wanting to replace a busted plate need to give DNA samples, fingerprints, photographs & dental imprints along with details of our passports, utility bills (at least 2 of these {one of which must be our phone bill [so they can get access to the numbers we might call, and when]}) along with certified copies of our V5 to get a plate made or risk deportation to Australia... (both us and the trader)

Those people intent on cloning or maliciously not wishing to share details of their innermost thoughts with the bloke on the corner who used to cheerfully make a living but who now spends half his day making reports for the thought police can now just send half the price out of the country and deprive the economy of this money entirely!

If only it were a Harry Potter story.

How can we tie in the right wallet to extract cash from if the numbers and letters are not exactly as we would like them so our machines can send out invoices in batches of 1,000 a day for each Police Farce area???

The wizzard of ACPO (A Cash Producing Organisation).
facade
The chap over the road had his car fail the MOT on Saturday because there is no maker's name on the number plate. (No marks except the registration number, maybe they meant no BS number?)
The fact that they had likely been fitted since 1993 cut no ice with the tester.

Mine are equally blank, and have definitely been fitted since 1996, when I bought the car, but my MOT was passed in May, has something recently changed?

NB. If you go to most printers who do numberplates they will make you a set of "show plates" that can be identical to a legal plate if you like, but "not for road use" and therefore you don't do any form filling or ID producing.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (facade @ Wed, 24 Oct 2007 - 11:04) *
The chap over the road had his car fail the MOT on Saturday because there is no maker's name on the number plate. (No marks except the registration number, maybe they meant no BS number?)
The fact that they had likely been fitted since 1993 cut no ice with the tester.

Tester's wrong; 1st September 2001 (see the PDF referred to below).

QUOTE (facade @ Wed, 24 Oct 2007 - 11:04) *
has something recently changed?

The 1st of October, apparently (see the PDF on the page for more info).
Mr Rusty
slightly OT, but I have just sent the following to VOSA. Wonder what the reply will say.........


QUOTE
Hi

I have just read the document "registration plates and the MOT test - your questions answered" where it states:-

"Therefore, old style
black and silver type registration plates which are permitted on pre-
1973 vehicles, are not permitted to be fitted to a vehicle first
*registered* on or after 1st January 1973."

But when I refer to the document on the DVLA website

V796 display of registration marks http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/leaflets/v796.pdf

it says:-

"Vehicles *constructed* before 1.1.1973 may display traditional style “black and white”
plates i.e. white, silver or grey characters on a black plate."

There is a difference in that one says "constructed" and the other says "registered". So which is it?

I have a vehicle constructed in october 1972, but not first registered until august 1973 - I have the manufacturing data to prove this in order to get "historic vehicle" classification. So, Q can it display black & white plates. According to the DVLA it can, but according to your Q&A it can't.

Please confirm.

Many thanks

Mr Rusty
bama
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Wed, 24 Oct 2007 - 22:34) *
QUOTE (facade @ Wed, 24 Oct 2007 - 11:04) *
The chap over the road had his car fail the MOT on Saturday because there is no maker's name on the number plate. (No marks except the registration number, maybe they meant no BS number?)
The fact that they had likely been fitted since 1993 cut no ice with the tester.

Tester's wrong; 1st September 2001 (see the PDF referred to below).

QUOTE (facade @ Wed, 24 Oct 2007 - 11:04) *
has something recently changed?

The 1st of October, apparently (see the PDF on the page for more info).


Interesting link. the pdf does say "Registration plates fitted to vehicles first used on or after 1st
September 2001 are also required to display the BS AU 145d
marking and the name and postcode of the plate supplier."

but where is this backed up in the legislation (quoted earlier) ?
I see a disconnect here.

anyone got a copy of the BS document ?
g_attrill
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 23 Oct 2007 - 22:26) *
So where is it mandated that the plate must carry a kite mark ?


Right below the bit you quoted:

QUOTE
and which, in either case, is marked with the number (or such other information as is necessary to permit identification) of that standard or specification


It's the same for pre and post 2001 plates. I imagine it was the law even before the new regulations, but some plate manufacturers were rather lax with their compliance.

edit: Also, in BSAU145a it says:

QUOTE
4 Marking

Each number plate shall be permanently and legibly
marked in such position as to be clearly visible when
the number plate is fitted to the vehicle, with the
following information:

1) The name, trade mark or other means of
identification of the maker.

2) The number of this British Standard,
i.e. “BS AU 145a”.


in BSAU145d it says:

QUOTE
5 Marking

5.1 Each number plate shall be permanently and
legibly marked with the following information:

a) the number of this British Standard, i.e. BS AU
145d1);

b) the name, trade mark or other means of
identification of the manufacturer or component
supplier;

c) name and postcode of the supplying outlet.
NOTE.1. This information should be displayed as shown in figure
1 and can be in any colour as long as it is not retroreflective.

d) If a border is displayed it shall be as shown in
figure 1 and shall not be retroreflective.
NOTE.2. The border may be any non-retroreflective colour.

e) There shall be no other marking, other than the
two to seven characters specified in the
regulations.

1 Marking BS AU 145d on or in relation to a product represents a manufacturer's declaration of conformity, i.e. a claim by or on behalf
of the manufacturer that the product meets the requirements of the standard. The accuracy of the claim is solely the claimant's
responsibility. Such a declaration is not to be confused with third party certification of conformity, which might also be desirable.
bama
ahh someone with access to the BS doc ! Excellent, thanks for that.

Re the legislation mandating the BS number yep it does, confusion has arisen from the first post and the use of 'Kite mark' I think. legislation says BS number not Kite mark.
certainly 'other marks' are mentioned viz:-

International distinguishing signs and other material
16.—(1) No material other than a registration mark may be displayed on a registration plate
except material complying with the requirements of any of the relevant standards mentioned
in Schedule 2.

So the answers are in the BSI doc.
the d standard seems to indicate that the kite mark is not allowed
"e) There shall be no other marking, other than the
two to seven characters specified in the
regulations."
Would love to see the whole of the BS standards (a and d) if that is possible ? . . .
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