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braindead62
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - September 2007
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A1, ELKESLEY,NOTTS (SOUTH BOUND)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - TRAVELING SOUTH A1 THROUGH ROADWORKS PASIING A NUBER OF CAMERAS OBSERVING THE REDUCED SPEED LIMIT 50MPH AT 05.25 A.M. SUNDAY MORNING NO OTHER VEHICLES IN SIGHT. EXITED SINGLE CARRIAGEWAY RESTRICTION BACK ON TO DUAL CARRIAGWAY WHERE ROADWORKS HAD BEEN COMPLETED AND CONES REMOVED TO THE EDGE OF THE ROAD AFTER ABOUT 150 YARDS THERE WAS A CAMERA STILL SET AT THE 50 LIMIT I MAY HAVE SPEEDED UP A LITTLE AFTER LEAVING THE ROADWORKS BUT I DIDN'T THINK I HAD

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.1: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:14:29 +0100
braindead62
Hi new here so I hope I do things right. On the bottom of the NIP there is a section for official use only headed certificate of service. Should this be signed and dated by the person sending out the NIP?
andy_foster
No
braindead62
Firstly very sorry Andy,Nemo and anyone else for the mistakes I have made posting on this forum. I will try to follow the corect guidelines I am a much better farmer than PC wizard.

Anyway a couple of questions if anyone can help. As I said before the NIP arrived after the 14 day time limit with no explanation for delay. I followed the sugestions in the link the wizard provided and sent in a letter to the the head of the scamera partnership concerned (that's the RAC letter) with a copy of the NIP stapled to it, by recorded delivery.

Now for the questions.

I did not ask for a reply to this letter should I have?

Should I have sent in the 172 notice at the same time?

I need further evidence for me to state with honesty who was driving at the time.There were 2 of us in the car both legaly entitled to drive and as we were on a long journey we did swap and change a lot.The information on the NIP is rather vague simply Excess speed 50 MPH ACD A1 Elkesley Southbound a long bit of road.

Can I get this evidence now or should I send in the 172 stating the reason for not saying who was driving and wait for the summons to arrive? .

Many thanks for any help and sorry again.
The Rookie
YES, you still need to ID the driver, ideally using the completede supplied form stapled to the RAC letter...

Your entitled to see no evidence until you are summonsed and have enterd a plea, you can write and ask for photo's to help ID the driver and will probably get a positive responce, but if you can't ID you will need to have used reasonable dilligence in trying to find out who was driving, soi that means doing a lot more!

Note if you can't ID the driver, then the fact the NIP was late is of no benefit in terms of defending the original substantive charge.

Simon

EDITED after wizard output visible....
braindead62
Many thanks Simon greatly appreciated will see what happens in due course I suppose.
braindead62
Hi could one of you kind people point me to information on how post a copy of a letter on the forum.
Thanks>
braindead62



OK OK I know I should have looked harder to find out how to post an image but I found it now and I hope it works. Sure someone will let me know if not.

The link should take you to a reply I received from the BIB in response to my letter informing them that I got the NIP out of time due to the post office strike etc.

A couple of questions if you can help They have sent me another NIP/S172 do I need to fill this in again? I sent in a completed signed NIP/S172 notice naming me as the driver by recorded delivery on Monday of this week (It was a photocopy I filled in and sent, but so is the new one they have sent me ) they would certainly have received that before sending me this letter. They state the certificate of service need not be signed but if as they say the NIP sent to me is a duplicate of the original do they need to look in the Oxford English dictionary, Duplicate = exactly like. So mine should surely be signed and dated?



Thanks in advance for any help B. D. 62
braindead62
For anyone in the same situation.This is a letter I will be sending to the scamera team who are trying to illegally collect the £60 tax from me.In response to their letter refusing to accept the out of time situation they have created. Probaly cost the taxpeyers £1000s trying to get 60quid. If the ordinary citizens of this country got away with the same blatant disregard for rules,laws and regulations that authourities of all types seem to do the country would be totally k******ed instead of nearly so. And wouldn't it be nice to have access to the bottomless pit of cash they waste. .

to Officer xxxxx
Xxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx Dear Officer xxxx NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION (NIP) ref:xxxx traffic ref: xxxx Firstly I would have preferred to communicate directly with the person handling this case, ( it is obviously important to have continuity in these matters) but as the signature on the recent letter received from your department is illegible . I will rely on you to pass on this letter to the relevant officer. A number of issues arise in respect of the letter I received. 1. Your office was fully aware of the on going postal disputes and the impending lengthy strike. A copy of the Royal Mail updates regarding this is attached. It was also the lead stories in all the media leading up to the time of the dispute, and whilst it was on-going. 2. I know this is irrelevant but for accuracies sake your officers should be made aware of the definition of DUPLICATE = EXACT COPY therefore it is either not a duplicate or it should also be signed and dated. 3. You have enclosed another NIP/172 Notice why? I have fully completed signed and returned the required information requested on the original NIP to Officer xxxx personally on the xxst October by recorded delivery. Certainly received by him before you sent out your letter. 4. The onus is on you to ensure the NIP is served within the 14 day time limit in accordance with the relevant law. Not to merely assume it will arrive in time. Especially when posted via a service that is not guaranteed under normal situations, let alone when the postal service is in turmoil. Other guaranteed options were available to you at the time of issuing this NIP and in the course of normal business practice would have be used by any other enterprise needing to comply with the need to deliver goods or services on time.
After again taking legal advice on your latest letter, (copy attached) I write to inform you that the above numbered NIP was received by me, the registered keeper of the vehicle, on the 16th day after the alleged offence. You will doubtless be aware of the requirements of section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, which requires the registered keeper of a vehicle alleged to be involved in an offence to be SERVED an NIP within 14-days. Your reasoning that, as it was WRITTEN & DATED on the xx October qualifies the NIP to have been served and that the 14-day period to have been compiled with is not correct and clearly does not meet the above stated Act. There is evidential proof and witnesses who will confirm to the date the said letter was received by the registered keeper of the vehicle Therefore I reiterate again that since the requirements of the relevant acts have not been met by your department I understand no prosecution is possible, and I would be grateful if you could acknowledge this to be the case. Furthermore I believe I have complied in full with the said acts by supplying you with all the required information.
Yours Sincerely
The Rookie
I wouldn't bother to be honest with you, they will still try and browbeat you and will ignore you. You clearly do not have to supply another S172 nomination form.

To be honest it looks like you have a stock reply form for alleged late NIPS.

Simon
jack1
Braindead
I spoke to a lawyer the other day on my case of which is similar his remarks were yes there was case law for and against the 14 day/post issue and it would be down to how the Magistate looked at the evidence to rule
but to repesent me would be in the region of 2K or I could do it myself but as i had a clean licence etc etc it would be advisable to take the FPN rather than spend a lot of effort and time
still going to try once more with a letter similar to yours and see what happens
but I have recieved my FPN so have till the end of the month to decide
The Rookie
The scammers will not role over they want your £60, you do not need a lawyer...

If the CPS decide to go to a summons (and its entirely possible they won't given the fact they can see you are well aware of the 14 day rule) there is plenty of case law available in the members library to allow you to fight this yourself, no need for a smart solicitor!

Simon
braindead62
Thanks Jack (good luck) and Rookie.
I am not giving in on this especially as our local chief is in court for yet another speeding offence (think he should be sacked with no pension the hypocrit) Think I will be subscribing to this movement the more the merrier it's time the shits at the top started listening to the voters in this country and not the few wa****s who dictate all the stupid new laws that are only put in place as a revenue raising scam to pay for all the money wasting projects the idiots in power dream up.As I have said before they only hit the basiclly honest hardworking people If you are a real criminal or have nothing to loose you can get away with murder. And they do!

I will have to fight the case myself if it comes to it I can't afford huge costs, if I loose the fine will be enough.
What the hell why should we roll over while they break all the rules and let them get away with it

If it's ok I will keep you informed Good luck to All

(just wished they would tax sex then all us old married men would have nothing to pay)

Cheers B D 62
braindead62
[list=1]
[*]Hi to you all any advice help would be gratefully received.
Today I received the letters below from the scamera mob. I have not yet denied or admitted the alleged offence in fact I really can't deny or admit it without seeing the evidence. Can I ask for this? They say they have the proof so that is probably that.

However the 14 day rule was clearly broken on their part and surely this prevents them from prosecuting me. There is no way I can afford a flash lawyer but I do think it is totally unfair if they can break the rules and get away with it. I realy would like to fight this as a matter of principal. More so as our local chief Hughes is being prossecuted for an offence 30 mph faster than me in exactly the same conditions except I was on a 50 temporary limit Sunday 5 am. deserted road dual carrigeway normally a 60 and all the roadworks had been removed. And they say I was doing 60 which I probably could have been given the circumstances.

I have 2 people who were bringing their cars in for repair to my sons garage when the original NIP arrived and witnessed it's delivery, both are prepared to swear to this under oath if that would help in any way.I don't mind a fair cop but the ba*****s don't play by the rules. and that stinks. I hope the twat that sends out the letters is reading this, be a man and admit when you are wrong. Think it is time I turned to crime at least you get a good deal as a criminal the onus is on the BIB to prove you a guilty and you don't have to incriminate yourself. Roll on the election the coward of a PM put off.

Thanks in advance for any help/advice BD62

Please see next post made a mistake and resizes images sorry.
braindead62
sorry don't think I should have resized images.
Hope these work



The Rookie
Typical 'attempted fraud' by the scammers over this, ignore and wait for them to summons if they want...

Simon
braindead62
Hi all would appreciate any help, as I said previously I cannot afford legal help funds are very low. Today I have received a summons to appear in court in 10 days time. I have not denied the offence of speeding although there are substantial mittigating circumstances as to why I may have been. It is the late NIP I contest. I have been driving for 40 years many of these as a long distance HGV driver and have never had any convictions for any motoring offence, no points nothing. Infact I have never been in contact with the law.
I really want to fight this case as I feel the scamera mob have broken the law with the late NIP due to there duty of care and the postal strike, but have no idea what to do next please help if you can.
Many thanks in advance for any assistance.
The Rookie
They have not 'broken the law' with a late NIP, but their failure to comply with the law means your prosecution for speeding must (should) fail.

Plead not guilty (by post of you wish) and the case will be adjourned for trial, before the trial it would be worth visiting the court and sitting in the public gallery to see how it works.

You need to go armed with the extract from the law that requires the NIP to be served in 14 days, you need a copy of the interpretation act that tells them what serving means, you will want to submit a compliant defence statement to the CPS along with compliant witness statements from your witnesses which hopefully the CPS will not demand attend courrt.

Simon
braindead62
happy11.gif Many thanks Simon got to see it to the end now win or loose will go with your suggestions. Let you know the outcome in due course. unsure.gif
doublethink
I thought that the postal rules from a legal point of view meant that it must be posted, not received. It is deemed to be posted as soon as it is put in the mail box even if you never receive it.

I hope im wrong, always seemed completly unfair, my information could be out of date, perhaps cases have gone against this but that was the legal definition about 10 years ago, maybe cases have since conflicted with this? I think your other defence is the stronger.
nemo
QUOTE (doublethink @ Sat, 29 Mar 2008 - 10:43) *
I thought that the postal rules from a legal point of view meant that it must be posted, not received.

Not correct.

Have a read of Firefly's analysis on time expired and non-received NIPs (members only)..wink.gif
leegomery16
Doublethink may be thinking about contract: a posted contract is deemed received when it is put in the post.

NIPs, as said, are different and reference must be made to the Interpretation Act 1978.
braindead62
Thanks all

So you still think the late service of the NIP ie: not being sent in the normal course of the post due to the scamera team not bothering about the postal strike. Is sufficient to request that the case not be persued by the CPS?

Any further help would be greatly appreciated I am a much better farmer than I am a solicitor.

Keep up the good work all of you.
leegomery16
Late service of an NIP without reasonable excuse makes any prosecution for the offence impossible. I suppose you could always request that the CPS do not proceed but I'd not be surprised if they did anyway. You will then have to persuade the magistrates that the NIP was not served on you within 14 days.
jeffreyarcher
I'll say to you what I said to erush (in BB&G).
andy_foster
There is a 'postal rule' which states that unless the offer stipulates that acceptance must be received, a contract is formed when acceptance is posted, whether it arrives or not.
This applies to the formation of contracts in civil law, not to the service of NIPs in criminal law.

If a NIP is sent by recorded delivery, there is an irrebuttable presumption of service, even if it is not delivered, but the deemed date of service is when it would have been delivered in the ordinary course of post.
braindead62
Hi again to you all.
I pleaded not guilty by post with a covering letter setting out my reasons for doing so and also detailing my good driving record etc.etc. I have now received a date for my appearance in court to answer the charge I am accused of. Could any one tell me what I need to do next ie:- should I request the evidence the CPS will present, do I need callibration docs or temporary camers authoritiy, or anything else. Your help would be greatly appreciated. I really do want to fight this if they expect us to follow the rules then so should they.
Many thanks braindead62
The Rookie
It is always best to stick to one defence, anything else smacks of desperation......

Submit a compliant defence statement to the CPS detailing the late NIP and puting them on notice of your defence, copy this to the court as well, do not go down any other route (good record, cal certs etc etc etc) as it harms your credability ("I know I've got a cast iron defence, but just in case.......") and will achieve nothing.

Simon
braindead62
Thanks Simon
I will be sticking with the late Nip as this is fact and from what I have read on this site the CPS should not be persuing this, just a waste of public money. I just wanted to make sure I followed the correct procedure never having been in contact with the law or courts until now.

Cheers and keep up the good work.

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