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Cheshirelad2
1. I am fighting a case which is going to pre trial review in two weeks. I don’t know what to say. Can anyone help.

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2..I asked the police a lot of questions that I found in a book but they did not even bother to reply. E.g. I noticed that the gatsometer calibration certificate was signed by someone high up in the company. I doubt very much whether he actually tested the equipment so on what basis can he sign it?



3. Also the summons is defective in that it does not refer me to the local article and order which they mention n general terms on the summons ie it says something like “contrary to a local article and order”.



4. I am thinking of writing to politicians to complain. Who should I write to.

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5. I am thinking of writing to the Council to see how they came to change the speed limit. Who should I write to and what questions can I ask. Is it too late now anyway?
andy_foster
Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard, and then post the Wizard's output back here to enable us to help you.
Cheshirelad2
I have examined my speed camera calibration certificate and I can see that it signed by a big wig in the company. You can even find him on Wikipedia.

There is no way that that person could have done the testing of the camera to give the certificate. He is practically the leader of the whole company and would not have the time. So why should he be able to submit evidence saying that the certificate was caliibrated by signing it?

I reckon he just signed a load of certificates as a matter of admininstration.

I have asked for the documents of the company which gave rise to the certificate but they have not supplied this. How far can I push this point?

I feel really really aggrieved and did not know the English justice system was so flawed.
Quattro
QUOTE (Cheshirelad2 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 14:50) *
I feel really really aggrieved and did not know the English justice system was so flawed.


Welcome to the club cool.gif
bama
have seen various examples signed by 'Field Engineer" "Field Service Manager" and "Approved Signatory"
Couple of examples ( I am sure there are more on the web).
http://www.safetycamera.org.uk/pd/TRUVELO-COMBI.gif
http://www.safetycamera.org.uk/pd/AM-CERT.gif

Am not a lawyer but if the guy signing the certs is removed from the actual testing by a layer of two of management it does seem to make his signature 'heresay' as he cannot to attest first hand to anything about the testing.
I suppose the answer to who should sign is somewhere in the bowels of the HOSDB...
Cheshirelad2
I doubt whether the signatory to the certificate could have signed it. He is one of owners/directors or whatever of the company. If he was doing testing of the equipment personally then his company would go down because he should be strategising not doing the donkey work!

I even found his name on Wikipedia.
Cheshirelad2
Hello forumites

You can see a copy of a calibration certificate by googling "calibration certificate;gatso;signature" I think.

What bugs me is the vagueness of the calibration certificate which makes me think that it stands a high chance of being faked or simply signed off as an admin thing by "Th. M. Janssen Technology mnager". The signatory does not even have the guts to state his full name (thereby concealing his identity).

The signatory states "Date of calibration.....05 January 2007" but does not state who undertook the calibration.

However, Dr J F Miller (does anyone know his full name and how he can be contacted?) states in the Home Office guidelines "A Guide to Calibration Requirements for Traffic Enforcement Equipment"

At para 2.2:

"Adequate test equipment and facilities shall be available to the person carryying out the calibration procedure. All equipment used for calibration shall be certified annually by a competant body with equipment traceable to national standards"

Question:
Does this mean that on top of a calibration certificate, a prosecutor really should give you some kind of proof that the calibration equipment should also come with a its own certificate. Makes sense.


At para 2.3:

"Prior to calibration of the enforcement device, the calibration records of the test equipment to be used shall be checked to ensure they have been tested witin the last year with equipment traceable to national standards"

Question:

Therefore are there further documents here?

Then at para 2.4:

"A calibration certificate shall be supplied to the police force using the device, with a copy held on record by the person who has calibrated the device. In addition to device specific requirements listed later in this document, the calibration certificate shall include:

i) the name of the individual who undertook the calibration....."

Question:

This certificate does not state that the signatory even did the calibrations!!!

My certificate does not even give the full name of Theodorus Maria Janssen.

I therefore say it's invalid.

Problem is that the Home Office try to cover this up by saying that this is not law. Merely a guideline. Therefore what is the point of having any guidelines at all if these people need not follow them. Doesn't make sense! Dr Miller wrote what he did (as above) because it makes sense and quite logical as a bare minimum of fair practice.

Can anyone enlighten me further?




Cheshirelad2
Oops

If you google "calibration certificate;634;Radar type 24" you can find the certificate on the Staffordshire County Council site.

Has anyone tried to argue that the calib certificate is invalid on the basis of what i have mentioned above?
Captain A
QUOTE
the calibration certificate shall include:

i) the name of the individual who undertook the calibration....."


I am sure that others with more experience (and/or brains!) will comment, but imho if the certificate must have the name of the individual and it doesn't have it then it is not a valid certificate.
Cheshirelad2
Thanks for that. I agree that it is invalid, but I think that the prosecutor and court clerk will try to pull the wool over the magistrates eyes by saying that it is guidance and not law.

Anyway what do other people think and what about my other points about other certificates.

Also has this been tested in court?
Cheshirelad2
In addition, if there secondary check (photos; lines) seems to evidence the speed limit infringement, then does that mean that the caibration certificate is iirelevant? Or does a faulty calibration mean a faulty primary check (radar says speed limit broken) and faulty secondary check?
Cheshirelad2
By the way. Try this.

Get a Gatso calibration certificate off the internet. Any one. Then compare it to yours. Hold both up to the light. (One on top of the other). Some of you will see that one is definitely a copy of the other. They are identical. Therefore, although these certifcates are supposed to be signed, one of them clearly (the later one) has not been signed.

The later one is obviously a copy of a master document with the date entered into later. This means that these certificates can be generated at the flick of a switch without being genuinely signed. I find this disgraceful. The guidelines say that they are to be signed for a logical reason. They make the calibrator get his finger out and actually do the calibration properly. Accountability and personal responsibility. Now he does need to but can still issue the certificate.

Does that copy (generated) signature constitute a "signature"???

It really just gets worse. Private corporations are given a green light to flout whatever they want to as long as they work for the prosecution. We really are careering to a police state.

Make sure you ask to see the ORIGINAL calibration certificate. Ie signed one...ie with a pen and ink!
Cheshirelad2
I am at the stage where I am about to ask the prosecution to disclose to me information about the gatsos which "caught" me.

I was speaking ta gatso expert who said that there have been successful defences by people on the basis that the gatsos were powered incorrectly. Is this right. Also what queestions should I ask.

On a side issue the prosecution have not provided me with the local order under which I am supposed to be prosecuted despite me asking for 6 months. Pathetic. The CPS rep undertook to provide it to me within 14 days of the last hearing. He did not.
Muggerbee
As I recall the gatso power issue related to temporary units set up to run on generators
when only type approved for mains or batter power.

The Rookie
You can ask for a copy of the TRO for the road in question from the local county council, or the highways agency for a trunk road, its a public document they have to give to be able to show to anyone anyway...

If we knew what type of road you were caught on it would help, obviously national speed limit roads (including street lit restricted roads) do not need an order UNLESS the limit has previously been other than the national limit for that type of road.

Simon
fatboytim
A couple of points that spring to mind, I have some experience of calibration, including 'traceable to national standards' ie BS, DIN and ISO etc.

Your point about the Co. Manager signing the Cert may be weak as, a number of different tests on the item may have been carried out by different people in different depts or even different companies, the Co. manager may be the point at which these test results are collated and he checks them all for their compliance, if they are all within the correct parameters he could sign the Calibration Certificate. You could ask for the individual test results and the tracability to National Standards of the equipment used.

If you are 100% sure the signitures are scanned and printed, I'd be tempted to pipe down, as you have raised the calibration issue, it would be difficult for the CPS to cry 'ambush' during the trial if the original signed (in ink) Cal. Cert. is not adduced during the Pros case, allowing a submission of 'No Case to Answer'.

North Wales had a problem with scanned signitures on statements, leading to aquittals.


fatboytim
Cheshirelad2
Thanks for that.

I wonder whether anyone knows what discolsure and what investigation I need to make in reagrdto :

1. Signage

2. Power for the GATSO

Thanks
Cheshirelad2
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 18 Nov 2007 - 04:50) *
You can ask for a copy of the TRO for the road in question from the local county council, or the highways agency for a trunk road, its a public document they have to give to be able to show to anyone anyway... If we knew what type of road you were caught on it would help, obviously national speed limit roads (including street lit restricted roads) do not need an order UNLESS the limit has previously been other than the national limit for that type of road. Simon


It was an A road.

Can I find out on the internet if they don't need a local order? If I write to the County Council it will take ages to get a response.

What annoys me then is that the local order and article which they put on the summons might have been a red herring to lead me up the garden path!
The Rookie
Well fill in the NIP wizard and also tell us about the road, if its an A-road with a 60 limit thats the national speed limit and no order is needed, likewise an A-road with lights is a 30 limit that would need an order to set it above the 30mph of a restricted road.

Best advice comes from good information, right now we have an absence of info and you get the advice consumate with that!

Simon
Cheshirelad2
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 22 Nov 2007 - 13:29) *
Well fill in the NIP wizard and also tell us about the road, if its an A-road with a 60 limit thats the national speed limit and no order is needed, likewise an A-road with lights is a 30 limit that would need an order to set it above the 30mph of a restricted road. Best advice comes from good information, right now we have an absence of info and you get the advice consumate with that! Simon


Thanks Simon.

It was a dual carriageway. Do you know who sets the speed limit and what authority they need to make the speed limit? At least then i could ask for that.

I will try to do the NIP wizard in a bit.

Cheers

The Rookie
We still don't know the limit as my Chrystal vballs are in for attention, so can't answer some of your questions.... you still haven't done the wizard, you have to help us to help you here...and stop starting new threads, it makes it all very confusing as the mods merge your disparate questions...

A Gatso MUST be powered by battery or from the Mains, I have the schedule that clarifies that, generators are NOT approved for use!

Simon

Faraway
QUOTE (fatboytim @ Sun, 18 Nov 2007 - 12:18) *
A couple of points that spring to mind, I have some experience of calibration, including 'traceable to national standards' ie BS, DIN and ISO etc.

Your point about the Co. Manager signing the Cert may be weak as, a number of different tests on the item may have been carried out by different people in different depts or even different companies, the Co. manager may be the point at which these test results are collated and he checks them all for their compliance, if they are all within the correct parameters he could sign the Calibration Certificate. You could ask for the individual test results and the tracability to National Standards of the equipment used.

If you are 100% sure the signitures are scanned and printed, I'd be tempted to pipe down, as you have raised the calibration issue, it would be difficult for the CPS to cry 'ambush' during the trial if the original signed (in ink) Cal. Cert. is not adduced during the Pros case, allowing a submission of 'No Case to Answer'.

North Wales had a problem with scanned signitures on statements, leading to aquittals.


fatboytim


I agree with you. In the electronics industry the equipment will be tested against a known specification and that will include subassemblies and the final assemblies. All those test certificates will be held back at Gatso headquarters to back up the assertion that that particular gatso is in specification. Whether the certificate is issued with a false printed certificate is not really relevant IMO as they will be able to show diligence with copies of all the test certificates that were ever produced on that serial number and model of gatso. If those test certificates are not kept and are not able to be produced then IMO you will have a case.
Cheshirelad2
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2007
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - THE A556 CHESTER ROAD, SANDIWAY, NORTHWICH
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - TRAVELLING FROM CHESTER TO NORTHWICH. got clicked by a GATSO. I am usually speed aware so am very surprised to have been caught speeding. Have been to the site and the signs are very clear so I can't see that I would have made that mistake (46mph) in a 40 zone.

I was also unlucky as their speed threshold was 46 before prosecution (45 and you should be ok). I mean assuming that I was going at 46 which I deny.

Was disappointed not to have been offered a speed awareness course instead for a first offence.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:34:09 +0000
Cheshirelad2
Ah, now I see why the NIP wizard was important!

Sorry about multiple threads. I go on other forums which is what you do there.
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