Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: 2 Mins to get change? Got Ticket Instead.
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
coolcat
Hello again,
I was parked in my local town recently but I didn't have any change. I parked my car and quickly ran to the shop next to the parking to get change.
As you can see by the ticket I was ticket for just 2 minutes. I ran out the shop as I see the warden and said I was getting change but she said "too bad, the offence was commited as soon as you left the car". The thing is it would have taken me just as long to walk from my car to the pay & display machine.
Do they really have the right to make me pay this?
Thank you
coolcat. (again)


Ticket front





Ticket back

clark_kent
You are lucky my local Council don't even bother waiting 2 minutes but he was correct they do not have to allow you time to go for change.
legaladviser
clark_kent agreeing with one of his parking attendant colleagues.

Now there's a surprise.
Glacier2
It looks like that PCN is non compliant, as it does not tell you to see the back for the NTO phrase. Also the NTO phrase itself appears not to be the correct wording.
Teufel
from the caselaw it is clear you do not have an allowance to get change
but do get an alowance of time to get a permit/ticket
Glacier2
How long are you allowed normally?
coolcat
The thing is, it would have took me just as long to walk to the ticket machine if not longer as it did to go into the shop to get change. So even if I did have change, by the time I got back to the car she would have still issued a ticket. Is it worth me appealing or should I just pay it? They must make a fortune like this. mad.gif
/dev/null
Claim that you weren't getting change, but that you were getting a ticket and there were several people using the machine hence taking a little longer. I doubt they'll follow it up too much.
redeeps
Its a non-compliant ticket. You do not have to pay. All tickets have to have the staturory prescribed wording. This one does not, doesn't even get close.

See Barnet case http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...gust%202006.pdf
MartinHP71
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 - 19:12) *
You are lucky my local Council don't even bother waiting 2 minutes but he was correct they do not have to allow you time to go for change.


You are so wrong. They do have to wait for you to get change if this take place within the confines of the carpark, for example asking someone to change a £1 for 2 x 50p's. If the rip off council moron doesn't then NPAS will overturn the ticket (read NPAS yearly reports), however leaving the car park to obtain change is not allowed and then the council moron's might be justified in placing a legal ticket on the vehicle (although in this case it would appear another illegal ticket has been issued)
coolcat
It wasn't a car park, it was a road with parking bays and the pay and display ticket is up the other end of the road that I parked. So if I was going to get a ticket I would not have made it there and back in the 2 minutes, I have never had this problem before, I guess the warden needs a new parker pen (or whatever this months prize is) biggrin.gif
Should I just write a letter of appeal or is there some points on this ticket that I can point out as not being correct?
Thanks for your help.
Glacier2
Simply say the PCN does not comply with the provisions of the RTA 1991. The council will always reject representations. Best to wait for the NTO to issue and see if that is non compliant at this stage you can take the matter to PATAS after the Notice of Rejection.
FEENIX
The Law is that you are not allowed to go away for change, only on the discretion of a parking attendant, A PA will usually give you a minute if you ask but if you don't ask he will wait till you are out of sight and bang a PCN on you and be ordering a Bacon banjo at the local cafe before you get back, if you know you are going to park it is much easier to get change than to fight the issue of a PCN, an East uropen guy asked me for change of a £1, parking was 40 for 1 hour in Bolton Market, I said iv'e only got 50p 20p and a 10p 80p in total, I told him better to lose 20p than £30, he asked the PA did he have change, naturally he said no, so off he toddled to get change, 2 mins later the PA put a PCN on the guys car, serves him right, I told him what would happen but he ignored my advice.

Lets get this in perspective, The council asks you to send all the PCN back when paying, they cannot ask you to do this it is your PCN, what happens if you send it off with 1 day to go and then you go to Australia for a month to visit family, for some reason your cheque payment and the PCN doesn't get there, natural progression takes place in the back office and wham!, when you get back there is an NTO on your doormat mixed in with 5 tons of junk mail, and it's now doubled, you are now left with nothing, see BARNET v MOSES, or the cheque could have been cancelled or it wasn't signed or you cancelled it, or the dog that got the postman chewed it up or whatever, you must be left with something so you can have a record of the PCN this is why virtually every council has a tear off slip on their PCN's, the PCN is non compliant on that basis. Funnily enough Bolton Council have put a tear off slip on their new PCN I wonder if it is because I brought it up at an NPAS meeting in May but because I won the appeal on a word missing from the car parks signs Pilkington V Bolton Council and did not pursue the fact that they had no tear off slip. they have picked up on that and included one now, but I have put in a FOIA to ask why they have changed their PCN's and I still have 5 of my own pcns to contest, all received on purpose of course, so I can challenge the Lawless Bolton Council.

Can we have a picture also of the Bay both ends and down the carraigeway lets see if it stacks up with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD'S) i'll bet it doesn't. it should be a 1032 bay for the one you were in
Also check to see if the contraventions are listed around the parking are informing you that you will have £60 taken off you if you cause one of the contraventions, it is not sufficient to have the information on the Pay and Display Machine because if there are Disabled bays in the parking place a Blue Badge holder would never visit a Pay and Display machine. You must by law be informed of why they are taking money off you, this is your right human or otherwise.

www.boltonparkingappeals.blogspot.com
clark_kent
QUOTE (/dev/null @ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 - 20:21) *
Claim that you weren't getting change, but that you were getting a ticket and there were several people using the machine hence taking a little longer. I doubt they'll follow it up too much.



Good idea lie that will REALLY help! The Council machines are computerised and will be able to tell how many tickets where sold at the time of the PCN issue and the PA will have noted the machine had no one at it so not really the best plan of action.
clark_kent
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 - 23:25) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 - 19:12) *
You are lucky my local Council don't even bother waiting 2 minutes but he was correct they do not have to allow you time to go for change.


You are so wrong. They do have to wait for you to get change if this take place within the confines of the carpark, for example asking someone to change a £1 for 2 x 50p's. If the rip off council moron doesn't then NPAS will overturn the ticket (read NPAS yearly reports), however leaving the car park to obtain change is not allowed and then the council moron's might be justified in placing a legal ticket on the vehicle (although in this case it would appear another illegal ticket has been issued)


I am not wrong we are discussing a Pay and Display not a car park and that aside discussing going to get change not asking someone at the scene for change.
clark_kent
QUOTE (FEENIX @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 01:30) *
Also check to see if the contraventions are listed around the parking are informing you that you will have £60 taken off you if you cause one of the contraventions, it is not sufficient to have the information on the Pay and Display Machine because if there are Disabled bays in the parking place a Blue Badge holder would never visit a Pay and Display machine.


Signage regarding receiving a PCN does not need to be used on street only on the machine. A blue badge holder would not need to visit the machine since they do not have to pay or display a ticket unless the Council had created a TRO to stop BB users using the bays which would need to be signed on the regular bay timeplates.
legaladviser
The PCN appears invalid. The use of "within" for payment time adds an extra day to the dstatutory formula (Al's Bar is authority). Compliance has to be strict after Moses, prejudice is irrelevant.

Also does the dotted line on the rear indicate a tear off slip. If so this iws not part of the PCN and therefore the mandatory wording abour issue of NTO does not appear on the PCN.
coolcat
Thanks so far for all your replies. I will get the photos hopefully tomorrow when I am back in the area and will get them up here as soon as I can.
My friend was right you people are really helpful and fantastic. Thank you again.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 09:43) *
I am not wrong we are discussing a Pay and Display not a car park and that aside discussing going to get change not asking someone at the scene for change.


I quote from the NPAS report.

It is well established that it is good practice for a PA to observe a vehicle for at least five minutes before issuing a PCN where there is a requirement to pay and display (in this case !!!) If they do not do so, then the council would be obliged to accept a motorist's representations
DW190
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 12:47) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 09:43) *
I am not wrong we are discussing a Pay and Display not a car park and that aside discussing going to get change not asking someone at the scene for change.


I quote from the NPAS report.

It is well established that it is good practice for a PA to observe a vehicle for at least five minutes before issuing a PCN where there is a requirement to pay and display (in this case !!!) If they do not do so, then the council would be obliged to accept a motorist's representations


That's fooked up the resident PA's views on the issue. laugh.gif
clark_kent
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 12:47) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 09:43) *
I am not wrong we are discussing a Pay and Display not a car park and that aside discussing going to get change not asking someone at the scene for change.


I quote from the NPAS report.

It is well established that it is good practice for a PA to observe a vehicle for at least five minutes before issuing a PCN where there is a requirement to pay and display (in this case !!!) If they do not do so, then the council would be obliged to accept a motorist's representations



NPAS has no juristriction over London Parking so the report is meaningless in this case. The TRO will usually state it is a contravention to leave a vehicle in the parking place without payment, going to get change is leaving a vehicle and all adjudication regarding this matter has gone in the Councils favour.
sarahg1969
Clark Kent, you have expressed lots of opinions on this thread, but not mentioned what you think about the enforceability of the PCN. Is it valid, in your opinion?
clark_kent
QUOTE (sarahg1969 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 13:44) *
Clark Kent, you have expressed lots of opinions on this thread, but not mentioned what you think about the enforceability of the PCN. Is it valid, in your opinion?



The contravention took place and a PCN should have been issued but the validity of the PCN document itself is not what I was commenting on. The driver was gone for longer than needed to buy a ticket from the machine, the 2 mins was only the time the PA was standing next to the car, if he had been at the machine he would have seen the PA and visa versa.
fred2
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 09:37) *
QUOTE (/dev/null @ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 - 20:21) *
Claim that you weren't getting change, but that you were getting a ticket and there were several people using the machine hence taking a little longer. I doubt they'll follow it up too much.



Good idea lie that will REALLY help! The Council machines are computerised and will be able to tell how many tickets where sold at the time of the PCN issue and the PA will have noted the machine had no one at it so not really the best plan of action.
Yes, best not to lie and lower yourself down to the same level as a PA with morals & integrity lower than a sewer rat!
clark_kent
QUOTE (fred @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 14:35) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 09:37) *
QUOTE (/dev/null @ Sun, 30 Sep 2007 - 20:21) *
Claim that you weren't getting change, but that you were getting a ticket and there were several people using the machine hence taking a little longer. I doubt they'll follow it up too much.



Good idea lie that will REALLY help! The Council machines are computerised and will be able to tell how many tickets where sold at the time of the PCN issue and the PA will have noted the machine had no one at it so not really the best plan of action.
Yes, best not to lie and lower yourself down to the same level as a PA with morals & integrity lower than a sewer rat!



At least my comment was helpful and constructive unlike yours which serves no purpose whatsoever. If you think making up a story which can clearly be proven as a lie is going to help the OP get off you are as stupid as the person who suggested it.
legaladviser
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 14:41) *
At least my comment was helpful and constructive


Ha, that would be a first. Why don't you troll somewhere else, where someone appreciates the sad mentalilty of a parking attendant?
sarahg1969
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 13:53) *
QUOTE (sarahg1969 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 13:44) *
Clark Kent, you have expressed lots of opinions on this thread, but not mentioned what you think about the enforceability of the PCN. Is it valid, in your opinion?



The contravention took place and a PCN should have been issued but the validity of the PCN document itself is not what I was commenting on. The driver was gone for longer than needed to buy a ticket from the machine, the 2 mins was only the time the PA was standing next to the car, if he had been at the machine he would have seen the PA and visa versa.


So, DO you think the PCN document is valid?
DW190
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 14:41) *
If you think making up a story which can clearly be proven as a lie is going to help the OP get off you are as stupid as the person who suggested it.


So you will agree that PA's and Parking Departments of Local Authorities who persistantly Lie are Stupid.
fred2
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 14:41) *
At least my comment was helpful and constructive unlike yours which serves no purpose whatsoever. If you think making up a story which can clearly be proven as a lie is going to help the OP get off you are as stupid as the person who suggested it.

Would that be in the same league of stupidity as clark_kunt's buddies who routinely issue ghost tickets and claim they were affixed to the vehicle. Or perhaps in the realms of stupidity as another of clarky's boyz who used photo manipulation software to alter the date stamp of a pic in order to "get his man"!
sarahg1969
Oh, he's not come back. Shame.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (sarahg1969 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 16:54) *
Oh, he's not come back. Shame.


If only it was permanent that he never came back .. dry.gif
coolcat
Hi again,
I take it you guys don't like this clarke_kent guy. tongue.gif
I took the pics but my transfer lead is at work "DOH!!!"
I will put them up when I get home from work tomorrow.
Thanks again.
Coolcat
legaladviser
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 20:28) *
QUOTE (sarahg1969 @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 16:54) *
Oh, he's not come back. Shame.


If only it was permanent that he never came back .. dry.gif


Unfortunately the idiot cannot take a hint and be gone for good. He's probably billy no mates, trolling these boards is all he has in his life.

(note to oneself: try to avoid feeding the parking attendant troll)
coolcat
Hello Again everyone,
Here's the photos I took last night, I hope they will be ok and that someone will be able to advise me what to do next.


WHERE I PARKED




FRONT OF BAY



REAR OF BAY




WORDS ON POST BY PARKING BAY



TICKET MACHINE



WORDS ON TICKET MACHINE




OTHER WORDS ON TICKET MACHINE




MAP OF ROAD




I hope these pictures can help you and I thank you all in advance for any help and advice you can give me.
Thanks
Coolcat
DW190
Correct me if I'm wrong but looking at where you are parked (some way from the machine) and the position of the ticket machine (must be to the rear of where you are parked if on the same road. The sign "Pay at Machine" appears to have the arrow pointing the wrong way, or is on the opposite side of the road.

If I'm right and the arrows are pointing in the wrong direction this would be good enough reason to be walking away from the P&D machine then returning in the 2 minutes.
coolcat
There is a machine at both ends of the road but the one at the end where the arrow is pointing had some sort of hood thing over it as it wasn't working.
When I went back to take the photo's it had obviously been fixed as the hood was gone so I just took the photo of the machine I would had to have used.
DW190
QUOTE (coolcat @ Tue, 2 Oct 2007 - 19:49) *
There is a machine at both ends of the road but the one at the end where the arrow is pointing had some sort of hood thing over it as it wasn't working.
When I went back to take the photo's it had obviously been fixed as the hood was gone so I just took the photo of the machine I would had to have used.


In that case I would appeal on the basis that you went one (in the direction of the arrow) to pay and the machine wasn't working. You then had to go to the other end of the street to buy a P&D ticket. On your return the PCN had been issued.

As much as the PA may say you went shopping, two minutes to buy a ticket when a machine is OoO is certainly not excessive.

I am confident that the Authority would not contest once reps were at the Adjudicator stage. Oh and they may cock up with the NtO or NoR. They may even capitulate in the early stages.
coolcat
QUOTE (legaladviser @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 11:04) *
The PCN appears invalid. The use of "within" for payment time adds an extra day to the dstatutory formula (Al's Bar is authority). Compliance has to be strict after Moses, prejudice is irrelevant.

Also does the dotted line on the rear indicate a tear off slip. If so this iws not part of the PCN and therefore the mandatory wording abour issue of NTO does not appear on the PCN.


Yes the dotted line is a tear off strip that you send with the payment.
Should I write to them now and tell them that their ticket is non compliant or do I wait for the notice to owner.
Thanks again everyone for your advice so far.
legaladviser
QUOTE (coolcat @ Tue, 2 Oct 2007 - 23:03) *
QUOTE (legaladviser @ Mon, 1 Oct 2007 - 11:04) *
The PCN appears invalid. The use of "within" for payment time adds an extra day to the dstatutory formula (Al's Bar is authority). Compliance has to be strict after Moses, prejudice is irrelevant.

Also does the dotted line on the rear indicate a tear off slip. If so this iws not part of the PCN and therefore the mandatory wording abour issue of NTO does not appear on the PCN.


Yes the dotted line is a tear off strip that you send with the payment.
Should I write to them now and tell them that their ticket is non compliant or do I wait for the notice to owner.
Thanks again everyone for your advice so far.

To be honest there is nothing to be gained from telling them now. They will invariably reject informal appeals (and formal). You have a good case for an adjudicator. With any luck the NTO will bring more errors.
jdfi
Also, theres little point in explicitly telling them that their docs are non-compliant. The last thing we need is every authority issuing documents that are 100% compliant!
nimh999
QUOTE (jdfi @ Thu, 4 Oct 2007 - 14:04) *
Also, theres little point in explicitly telling them that their docs are non-compliant. The last thing we need is every authority issuing documents that are 100% compliant!
Makes no difference whether you tell them or not. They don't need to change a non compliant PCN because most people pay up without question.

Legalised extortion.

Councils and PA's knowingly issue non compliant PCN's and just rely on those without the knowledge to just pay up.

Those with the knowledge appeal but that still won't stop a council trying to bully you into paying up right up to adjudication.

Also the PCN may be invalid for another reason.

QUOTE (nimh999 @ Sat, 6 Oct 2007 - 12:35) *
If you have posted the whole of the front of the PCN then it may be invalid.

How about this one from Box Clever

"I would say that the PCN is invalid. RTA 1991 section 66(3)(f) states that the PCN must show "the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent." It is common and acceptable practice to put a message such as "FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON PAYMENT SEE OVERLEAF", but this instruction must be on the PCN. Note that in this case the instruction is on the tear-off slip which it has been ruled does not form a part of the PCN.

So, section 66(3)(f) has not been satisfied and he PCN is invalid."

The reverse of the PCN is not part of the PCN unless there are specific instructions to look at the reverse for payment instructions.


Sorry. Have just noticed the bit to the right. Is that part of the PCN or is it the tear off slip?
coolcat
The bit to the right is a tear off part that tears of along the dotted line along the bottom.
Hope that makes sense.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.