In court Monday

just received the Police witness statement and the officer has put the wrong date of the speeding offence.

Summons has the correct date.

Does this matter.

Cheers Ross

Dont call the police officer as a witness. The first thind he would be asked before cross examination is "Is that your statement" "is it correct" at this point he could correct the error.

Keep it under your hat until any trial commences. Then drop it on the toes of the prosecutor. The prosecutor cannot alter any statement. It must be statement as read. It is fundementally wrong.

Ross1

Remember, that many people are prosecuted for speeding offences only minutes apart, let alone on different days. Stand very firm on this, and as DW190 says, do not request the officer attends, and wait until after the statement has actually been read. Do not be tempted to mention it before this time.

Chris

Won't they just say its a typo and the mags will accept a simple mistake

The purpose of the 'slip rule', is primarily to correct typing or arithmetic errors in costs claims.

It may be used, exceptionally to correct other court documents, where the intention of the court has been manifestly misrepresented in a document. Viz. Mr. Goddard, typed as Mr. Godart perhaps

A defendant could and often does have more than one speeding offence on the go at one time, it is therefore imperative that a witness statement clearly refers to a time and date with a reasonably high degree of accuracy, in order that the offence being tried and the 'informations' related to that specific trial are clear.

Chris

Hang on, the slip rule applies to 'any certificate issued by the court' I guess that would include the summons, but specifically EXCLUDE the witness statement which is surely not issued by the court but by the CPS having come from said witness.

Simon.

Good point Rookie

Chris

Hi,

Can someone point me to the reference for the slip rule. I was under the impression that it applied to NIPs and Witness statements as well as 'any certificate issued by the court'.

I think I may have plead guilty and accepted a £600 fine and 6pts unnecessarily which makes me feel decidedly queasy.

Bob

Bob-sprocket

the slip rule http://www.courtservice.gov.uk/using_court...e/section14.htm

Chris

Oh Poo!

I commited the pleading guilty suicide trick.

I was lead to beleive that a NIP with the wrong date and a Police witness statement could be changed. This is clearly wrong as neither document was issued by the court.

Others here have suggested/stated that incorrect dates and reg numbers on NIPs and other docs produced by scammers and the Police can be changed using the slip rule. This also appears to be incorrect.

Can one of the senior folks here please give a definative answer please.

Best wishes

Bob

If I plead N/G in court, won't the CPS have the copper in court to give his statement at which time he will correct his mistake.

Since he was by himself and only using this type of car (unmarked) to go to a meeting, I requested his pocket book and Cert (of the car). The CPS have told me they will mark these available in due course, am I right to understand that this must be 7 days.

Cheers Ross

Chaps,

This link will take you to John Josephs’ opinion on the slip rule.

I understand the slip rule, but how do I stop the copper turning up in court so that the CPS will have to rely on the original statement.

Cheers Ross

They can change them anytime up to the commencement of the trial. Once the trial has commenced its to late.

If for example you call plod as a witness and there is an error in his statement he can before cross examination advise the court and correct it.

The first words to a witness are can you look at the statement? is that you signature at the end of each page? Are the facts in the statement correct? At this point the witness can say "All but a slight typo error in the date of the alleged offence which should read ??/??/??.

Without the witnes present nobody can correct any errors and it has to be statement as read.

So if the statement is read that says Bob S exceeded the limit on day 3 when all the other evidence says day 4 they're f**ked.

That looks OK

But what happens when he says yes everything is correct,

I say thankyou for your time sir. dismiss the witness.

then I point out to the Court its the wrong day.

will not the CPS, then call the witness and he will say sorry mate its a typo

am I not back to square 1

Ross

The order of events, as I remember them: -

1. CPS present the prosecution case then "rests"
2. You cross-examine their witness if you want. Perhaps focus on eveything in the statement EXCEPT the incorrect date? Perhaps say nowt and steer well clear.
3. Witness is discharged from oath & is free to leave

** You ask for an adjournment for lunch / urgent toilet visit / fit of nerves - to give the CPS witness more time to leave - if he's on duty then he'll probably not hang around **

4. You present your defence, call witnesses (if any)
5. Case dismissed
6. Everyone goes home

AFAIK, the CPS cannot recall their witness to have a "second bite of the cherry" - I love these legal terms - so once he's discharged, he's outta there.

Thats why you dont request the attendance of the witness. Statement as read is then the only possible way to introduce the statement.

Once the statement has been introduced it cannot be related to your summons because its states the offence was committed on a different date. The statement cannot be associated with your offence = No Evidence = No Case to Answer = Case Dismissed.

"I would like to make a request for costs your worships"

Divbad


It does not work like this!

prosecution witnesses or statements are presented throught the prosecution case in 'cheif'. You have the opportunity to cross examine witnesses or comment on a written statement throughout the process.

What you can not do, is raise errors regarding the evidence given after the prosecution has rested it's case. The CPS have to be given the oportunity to re examine any new points the defence raises.

Where there are errors, try to avoid the witness attending in person. Even then, the court has the discretion to adjourn, and require the witness to attend. And be prepared for a CPS blast of Gleeson.


Chris

I'm between two rocks here.

Plead Guilty. loose

Plead N/Guilty Cop turns up and changes date.

could I try a no show, tried in absent on statement with wrong date

then appeal as statement had wrong date

Ross

I'm between two rocks here.
Why

Plead Guilty. loose
Thats Easy

Plead N/Guilty Cop turns up and changes date.
Cops wont turn up unless you request them to.

could I try a no show, tried in absent on statement with wrong date
Not advisable

then appeal as statement had wrong date
Could be corrected in your absence.

If you plead Not Guilty dont say why. In fact Not guilty is your only plea on the evidence provided by the witness statement.

You can change your plea any time up to the commencement of the trial.

If you run all the way to trial and are found guilty you can still enter mitigating circumstances with reference to the factually wrong statement.

You can not do this.

You have to challenge the witness on cross examination. Is his statement true or not? Is the offence to which he referes commited on date xx/xx/xx/ or date xx/xx/yy?
Regardlesss o his reply, you challenge the surity of his evidence.

But , importantly, try not to have the witness appear in person attall?

Chris

I'm told that the coppers will turn up in 90% of cases.

I've also asked for the coppers note book and certs for the car.

the CPS has said I can have these in due course , so I'm sure they will have the copper there to give his statement, which means he'll correct the date and I'm back to square one.

Q. If the copper has not fully followed the ACBO guidelines, could this offer a chance or will most mags not be that interested in the detail.

Ross1

If you are not told prior to trial of a witness who will attend, then how can you prepare? They have to tell you in advance of all evidence on which they will rely and all witnesses to be called. Or you object to them being used or called. It applies to both sides, no one can produce evidence at trial like 'rabbits popping out of a magicians hat'.

Chris

Q. If the copper has not fully followed the ACBO guidelines, could this offer a chance or will most mags not be that interested in the detail.

Has any body had any luck with showing that ACBO guidelines were not fully followed.

Ross,

I assume you mean ACPO guidelines.

The trouble with guidelines is exactly in the wording (Guidelines) thats all they are. They are not law.

They should be followed but so should the speed limit.

Hi,

Are the ACPO guidelenes not instructions on how each of the CoPs want those people who are acting on their behalf to act. In other words they are opperational instructions to Police officers on how to use speed detection devices.

If an officer had completely ignored ACPO guidelines then that could be used as part of an attack seeking to show incompetence or to cast doubt on the evidence but I guess thats the best you could get out of it.

Best wishes

Bob

At Paul Lee's case in Cardiff, the camera operator appeared to have about as much grasp of the ACPO guidelines as Champion the Wonder horse. It was not fatal to the prosecution's case.

It appears that, for the moment, guidelines remain just that.