Freeedom
Thu, 2 Aug 2007 - 16:05
Hi
I have been doing deliveries for a fast food take away for a year, and yesterday I had been stopped by the police and charged with having no Buisness insurance.
I wasent aware that I needed buisness insurance while doing my job and was never informed that i do by my employer, so straight after the incident I got a policy from direct line which included buisness insurance to cover me while doing deliveries.
I also emailed one of the free Lawyers and asked his advice and I got this reply.
"Technically your employer should have sorted out the insurance for you or at least advised you what you needed to do, you may be able to avoid the points but it will be hard"
I have had my licence for 5 years and have no points and a full insurance and Mot history.
Is there anything i can do, or should i just accept the points that i receive.
Thanks
Chris.
jeffreyarcher
Thu, 2 Aug 2007 - 16:55
I assume that the vehicle is your own; i.e. not your employer's?
If so, I think that you are stuffed.
QUOTE (Freeedom @ Thu, 2 Aug 2007 - 17:05)
I also emailed one of the free Lawyers and asked his advice and I got this reply.
"Technically your employer should have sorted out the insurance for you or at least advised you what you needed to do, you may be able to avoid the points but it will be hard"
Something not quite right there, methinks.
If it was the case that your employer should have sorted it out, why would it be hard to avoid the points?
Barking Mad
Thu, 2 Aug 2007 - 22:27
When you were pulled by the old bill, were you taking a pizza to a customer or returning from having taken the pizza to the customer?
Please explain exactly what you were using yur vehicle for when stopped and asked for the insurance
Freeedom
Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 00:15
I was driving to a customers house, but on the way i went through a bus lane and got stopped for that and i had a bunch of deliveries in the car,
Also the police man that stopped me knew me and he comes into the shop i work at for food so he knew i was doing deliveries.
The Rookie
Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 01:37
Your employer certainly had a responsibility to inform you that you needed business insurance and should check before allowing you to work, I'm guess the lawyer was suggesting you may be able to plead guilty with a 'special reason not to endorse' which is a valid technique, but in your case I think he's right, you are bang to rights, also when applying for your insurance you would have been asked if it was for 'social domestic and pleasure as well as commuting to and from your regular place of work' clearly delivering Pizza's isn't any of those uses!
Simon
Gaza
Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 06:47
QUOTE (Freeedom @ Thu, 2 Aug 2007 - 17:05)
I wasent aware that I needed buisness insurance while doing my job and was never informed that i do by my employer, so straight after the incident I got a policy from direct line which included buisness insurance to cover me while doing deliveries.
When you called Direct Line did you (a) specifically tell them you would be doing deliveries and (b) tell them you had a pending "Driving without Insurance charge"?
The reason I ask is insurance companies make a very clear distinction between "Business Use" and "Deliveries". "Business Use" normally covers use in connection with your employers business but specifically excludes certain activities.
I would be very surprised if DL would even quote if you told them about the impending "Driving without insurance" charge.
h3rjp
Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 14:10
Personally i think this would come under the employer's vicarious liability - in the same way if you are driving on behalf of a company and you run someone over the company could be held equally responsible with you.
If you have legal assistance cover with your motor policy I would talk to a lawyer; I think you have a very strong case that either:
The employer should provide you with insurance cover (thier 3rd party liability may cover it anyway)
The employer should have told you that you need to take out additional insurance cover.
I would seek advise from a lawer / citizen's advice. You may need to raise this a a grievance with your employer's too, because it shouldn't be your fault if you were acting on behalf of a company....
Rob
Barking Mad
Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 15:27
QUOTE (h3rjp @ Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 15:10)
Personally i think this would come under the employer's vicarious liability - in the same way if you are driving on behalf of a company and you run someone over the company could be held equally responsible with you.
If you have legal assistance cover with your motor policy I would talk to a lawyer; I think you have a very strong case that either:
The employer should provide you with insurance cover (thier 3rd party liability may cover it anyway)
The employer should have told you that you need to take out additional insurance cover.
I would seek advise from a lawer / citizen's advice. You may need to raise this a a grievance with your employer's too, because it shouldn't be your fault if you were acting on behalf of a company....
Rob
And the employer, who wants to keep all his costs down, simply says "I told him". Most of these deliveries lads are "self employed" they don't get stopped tax & NI.
Gaza
Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 16:01
Who is your employer? A multi-national chain or a local outfit?
I have to say I am a little perplexed by the police action. They seem to have determined that your policy is invalid by the fact that you said you did not have business insurance. Did they call your insurer to verify?
If the copper who stopped you has an ounce of sense I doubt very much if he will ever by a pizza from your place again. He might not like some of the additional ingredients that are added!
icarus
Sat, 4 Aug 2007 - 21:08
The type of insurance you have is normally displayed on your insurance certificate. On a Direct Line insurance certificate this is displayed under Limitations as to Use.. If business use is included it will say: 'use by the Policyholder in connection with the businesses of the Policyholder'. It is important to note that this only covers the policyholder so if you're merely a named driver on the policy covering the vehicle in question, you're not covered for business use. Unfortunately the default cover you get when you take out a policy is without this business use and only for social, domestic and pleasure use is covered (which includes commuting to and from work for not use at work). Unless you requested business when you took out the policy it is unlikely you have it.
I had to extend my insurance cover to cover business use as I recently changed my role where I work and occasionally have to drive whilst working on behalf of the company I work for. What you'll kick yourself for now is that generally this change of usage is at no extra cost or the cost is negligible to the overall cost of the policy. When I asked them for this extra cover there was no extra charge.
That aside your employer should have told you about this. However, what is shocking is that few employers are actually aware about this. It is also unlikely that your employer can be held to account for this and I'm afraid that when the vehicle is less than 3.5 t it is the driver solely who will carry the can and in almost every case the company will get off scot fee, even when they provide the vehicle.
nimh999
Sat, 4 Aug 2007 - 21:16
QUOTE (icarus @ Sat, 4 Aug 2007 - 22:08)
Limitations as to Use.. If business use is included it will say: 'use by the Policyholder in connection with the businesses of the Policyholder'. It is important to note that this only covers the policyholder so if you're merely a named driver on the policy covering the vehicle in question, you're not covered for business use.
Pizza deliveries would not normally be covered under business use. Deliveries are almost always specifically excluded and you have to specifically request this type of cover. Reading the policy and Certificate of Insurance should clear this up.
It will also almost always say Carriage of own goods. In other words not something owned or belonging to someone else.
axeman
Sat, 4 Aug 2007 - 21:32
QUOTE (Barking Mad @ Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 16:27)
QUOTE (h3rjp @ Fri, 3 Aug 2007 - 15:10)
Personally i think this would come under the employer's vicarious liability - in the same way if you are driving on behalf of a company and you run someone over the company could be held equally responsible with you.
If you have legal assistance cover with your motor policy I would talk to a lawyer; I think you have a very strong case that either:
The employer should provide you with insurance cover (thier 3rd party liability may cover it anyway)
The employer should have told you that you need to take out additional insurance cover.
I would seek advise from a lawer / citizen's advice. You may need to raise this a a grievance with your employer's too, because it shouldn't be your fault if you were acting on behalf of a company....
Rob
And the employer, who wants to keep all his costs down, simply says "I told him". Most of these deliveries lads are "self employed" they don't get stopped tax & NI.
QUOTE
that does not apply anymore, self employed only applies if you take the business risk and the possibility of losing money should things go wrong (well something like that) it is illegal to pay cash in hand.
icarus
Sat, 4 Aug 2007 - 21:41
It's best to tell your insurance company exactly what you are going to be doing and ask what type of insurance you require. When I requested business cover and explained what I needed. They added the cover I mention in my previous post above and explained that this covered any business use except that associated with the motor trade or private hire. They didn't mention deliveries were excluded but I don't deliver pizzas. My role doesn't involve delivering anything to customer's homes. One thing they did mention was that if I was transporting goods for my employer, things such as laptops wouldn't be covered if the vehicle was broken into and they were stolen.
Cricketer
Sun, 5 Aug 2007 - 11:41
In general (from working in the motor insurance industry) you should always declare to the insurance company/broker that you will use your vehicle for making deliveries, if you are doing so.
A lot of companies will now not touch this business with a bargepole, however some are happy to do so with some restriction ie. When this was required, we stated that a) Monies and any other form of currencies are not covered. b) foodstuffs (or any other business materials) were also not covered.
The was always an increase in premium as this was called "Class 3" business use.
Why the police were being so nosey though I'm not sure... personally you would think if common sense was prevailing they would be concerned that Liability cover was still valid.
I feel a share of the blame lies with your employer for not informing of the requirements of your role.
If you are being prosecuted for invalid insurance, you will need to declare this to any insurance company you get a quote from, and the best advice for the future, if your not sure what to tell an insurance company, declare the information anyway, last thing you want is a policy cancelled for failing to disclose material facts.
Hope this helps!
badbusdrivers
Sun, 5 Aug 2007 - 14:03
For delivering pizzas you need class 2 insurance and it will state on the policy/certificate:
This permits use of the vehicle in connection with the policyholder's business but excludes commercial travelling.
Use for social, domestic and pleasure purposes and for the business of the Insured and the Insured's employer or partner.
Excludes use for hiring, racing, pace-making, competitions (other than treasure hunts), rallies, speed testing or van and commercial travelling.
Any purpose in connection with the Motor Trade. Excludes commercial travelling.
Do check your certificate carefully as this may be on it, some insurance companies include this for no extra charge. Pizza delivering is not commercial travelling. Also your employer may have a insurance that covers any vehicle being used by employees eg does he employ moped riders etc
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