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wibble
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Kent County Constabulary
Date of the offence: - July 2006
Date of the NIP: - 31 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 32 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A229 Chatham Road,Boxley, Maidstone
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - NK
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - It was my mum's car, I was driving at the time
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was driving down the A229 and was slowing down as I entered the 50 zone from a 70 speed limit. The Van was parked a couple of hundred yards into the 50 limit on an overpass and allegedly caught me doing 59mph.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the PACE witness statement.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v1.0.2: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:47:58 +0000

I previously filled in the PACE witness statement and sent this off back in September. I have not had any correspondence from Kent Constabulary since I sent this in, and have now received a summons for the speeding offence. Hearing is scheduled for Jan 23rd 2007.

The documents they are submitting as evidence are:

a statement from an enforcing officer
a photo of the offence
correspondence of 172 form (blank with words 'see attached statement' written across it)
PACE witness statement

Please could someone advise on the best way to proceed. They have applied for £35 costs.
Lynnzer
Summons for speeding after a Pace?
My guess here is that if you plead not guilty then the case will be adjourned. This seems normal practice. Get "friendly" with the court clerk and get as late a date for the actual case as you can. A week or so before the case is due to be heard ask for another adjournment pleading not available due to other commitments.
The O Halloran case will be hopefully resolved in favour of the Pace route thus invalidating the "evidence" ie the Pace statement, they have against you.
You could ask for an adjourment until such time as the O Halloran case has been resolved but don't rely on getting one.
Just for the record, and as I found out myself recently, if you go to court with a guilty plea it'll be rubber stamped there and then. Points and fine imposed on the date of the hearing.
If you plead not guilty, the CPS have little more information than will have been sent you in the summons. They generally don't have enough and they won't have had time to construct a case against you so the clerk of the court adjourns the hearing for them to build up a case.
Of course you must be prepared to mount an argument for them to defend. Go along the lines of the inadmissability of evidence from the Pace statement. It's relatively rare so not many of the CPS will have worked up a case on this and will need time to research.
You'll find all the info you need in this forum to be able to prepare for the hearing.
wibble
Cheers. One of the pieces of paper I received is a reply form asking if I have objections to the witness statements they're putting forward (being the pace, incomplete 172 form, photo and statement from enforcing officer). I guess I should also return this, stating I object to the PACE statement being used, and to plead not guilty?

I also guess, without the pace statement being submitted as evidence (subject to ECHR hearing), they cannot prove who was driving?
Lynnzer
Got it in one Wibble.
Of course the world might end if the ECHR case falls through but that's another thing to worry about later.
Write (special delivery) that you do object to the PACE statement being used as this contravenes your human rights. Point out that a decision is expected in February on the O Halloran case at Brussels which will rule on the admissability of this as evidence. Also point to the fact that this case has already been ruled on in the UK and has been found in favour of the defence.
Ask for a stay until the ECHR case has been finalised which should only be a short time. If they don't agree, just hang it out with a request for an adjourment a few days before your case comes up, for reasons best known to yourself.
Somewhere on this site is the reference to the previous right to not have the Pace statement used against you. My memories just a bit short on the details.
wibble
Hmmm, seems easy enough then, thanks wink.gif
wibble
Well, I objected to the use of PACE, to which I got some reply about them being able to use it in court.

I pleaded not guilty via post today (recorded delivery), and will now await a new date and will have to start doing some research!

Could someone move this to the members section please?

I will post up pictures of the items I have tomorrow.

I do wonder what the best line of defence would be though - from what I've read before I basically need to get the PACE statement excluded as evidence, and then I guess they would not be able to prove who the driver is? If this is the case, then would it be best to go down the 'statement taking under duress/without caution' route?
The Rookie
Thats the route you need to take, but even better is to request an adjournment until after the O'Halloran and Francis ruling comes in which is hoped for within the next two months, when you loose (as most do as magistrates can't handle complex legal matters, nor are they meant to) you need to appeal.

Simon
wibble
















I sent the summons back end of last week pleading not guilty.

What's the best time to ask for disclosure of evidence? I believe if they dont supply two weeks before your court date then you can get the case dropped?
The Rookie
Its 7 days, you need to write a request to the CPS, copy to the court explaining your defences (driver details 'evidence' extracted under duress, and you do not believe you were speeding) and ask for a copy of the full video of the session in question 'for analysis' you could counter there prosepective arguments by pointing out that the DPA does not apply to evidence in criminal cases. The 'northants sliced and diced' thread is a very good source on how to do this.

Simon
chadders
I'm confused (always!) but there's a discrepency between your first post and the summons bundle?

QUOTE
correspondence of 172 form (blank with words 'see attached statement' written across it)


Did you forget to scan it in?
wibble
Sorry Chadders - didnt hve my NIP to hand to scan at the time. Will try and get it scanned in tomorrow, although I only wrote on it 'see attached statement'.

Apologies.
wibble
Pre-Trial Review coming up on Thursday. Do I only need an outline of my defence for this one? Do I need to request at the hearing that I wish for all video to be disclosed, along with all other evidence?

I havent had any further correspondence regarding the case (been slightly distracted recently), and overlooked the fact I needed to tell them of any days I was unavailable before the hearing, but I will ask for an adjournment at the time and then will appeal if needs be if it's rejected.

I am planning to base my defence around getting the PACE statement withdrawn due to the statement being made without caution and under duress & threat of prosecution. This hangs on the O'Halloran case I think? I am unsure if it's worth asking to cross examine the camera operator as the only point I would ask was when he formed a prior opinion of my speed (the pic is taken about 100 yards into the zone so I suspect he did not actually do so). Proving anytihng there would be difficult though, so I'm thinking of not bothering in order to keep costs down, and will instead just ask for calibration certificates.
The Rookie
Have one ready, they may or may not ask for one, yes you need to ask for the full ession video (aka statement according to the attorney general) be prepared to rebut the DPA argument they will use, you need start and end of session checks to confirm they were acceptable, your bit to get an expert analysis of the speed, and all the others to establish how the device was being used and assess any discrepancy in alignments.

Simon
wibble
Can someone point me to the law/ruling stating that 'evidence must be disclosed in a reasonable timeframe to allow defendants to prepare their defence' please. I am just putting together a couple of written requests for tomorrow and wish to make note of this to refer back to if disclosure isnt forthcoming within te relevant timeframes.

I saw it somewhere on here but cant find it again! sad.gif
wibble
OK, I've now put together:

- A letter requesting full disclosure, which I will present to the prosecution tomorrow (cc the courts - though should it be the clerk of the courts?)
- A letter explaining unavailability on some dates, to present at court tmorrow to the clerk.
- A letter asking for an adjournment until O'Halloran is decided upon.

I have a draft skeleton argument on what my defence will be, and some points regarding DPA/Copyright relating to the video.

Do I need anything else for a Pre-Trial review? The Court Order states tomorrow is merely to set a date for the case to be heard, and doesn't say anything about outlining the defence or prosecution arguments, asking for disclosure, etc.

Any help appreciated!
wibble
Well, I've just got back from my Pre-Trial Review. Good fun it was too.

Date is set for 24th April 2007. I did ask for it to be held in abeyance until the case on O'Halloran was decided but the Clerk said they do not adjourn cases to wait for other cases to be decided upon. Not sure if this is worth appealing on. I was asked what my defence relies upon and said it was that I was compelled to give evidence under threat of prosecution and without caution, and also have doubts as to the accuracy of the alleged speed. I didnt quote any case law.

They then asked if I wished to call any witnesses, and I said I would like the camera operator to ask if guidelines were followed, if calibration checks were carried out, and if he formed a prior opinion. I asked for calibration certificates to be disclosed and they said these would be presented on the day by the camera operator and could not be disclosed beforehand as they are in the witness' possession. I am sure this is a cause for appeal or follow up as it would not give me any time to prepare a defence. The Clerk said if I wished to challenge any technical points I would need to call an expert witness to be there on the day.

Any advice is welcome on what to do next (my thinking is to challenge them on disclosure prior to the hearing, and ask for a further adjournment to get this case heard after the O'Halloran decision?).
wibble
I've asked them for disclosure, and received a letter back stating they will get certificates, etc, sent out to me. Although they sent this letter, I still havent received any further evidence relating to the photos, calibration.

I've also asked for an adjournment from the courts, as the case is 2 days before I start covering for the company's IT department and I need the time for induction training. Havent heard back from the court either! I know they received the letter on the 3rd April.

What is the best way to follow up my request for an adjournment? The case is in 9 days!
wibble
Any help would be appreciated on the above - should I phone up the courts and speak to someone to ask for another adjournment? Is it best to seek an adjournment until after O'Halloran is decided, or should I go along and argue that they have not disclosed evidence and that it should be adjourned until they do so or chucked out?

Any help appreciated as to my next step!
wibble
Well, phoned up today and found out case is adjourned until July 9th smile.gif
The Rookie
You say photo's what 'device' was used, if its lastech then its a video you must have and not some conveniant extracts....

Simon
wibble
It was an LTI 20/20 TS/M - does this take pictures or video? If it's video, even better biggrin.gif
thurgarton
QUOTE (wibble @ Thu, 19 Apr 2007 - 20:39) *
It was an LTI 20/20 TS/M - does this take pictures or video? If it's video, even better biggrin.gif


Good news, Its video biggrin.gif - stills are produced from the tape - although looking at the pic they sent me, it must have been enlarged as it only shows a close-up of part of the back of the vehicle, from which it is impossible to determine where the picture was taken, or indeed if it is genuine. After all it would only take a few minutes on a PC to generate close-up of the back of a vehicle and paste on a speed gun reading and make it look genuine.

Thurgarton
wibble
Had a court date start of July for a speeding offence, but ultimately after the O'Halloran case failed, and reading the horror stories on here, I decided not to attend.

Received a letter today stating I'm ordered to pay £320! £120 fine and £200 of CPS costs.

I'm not worried about the points on my license but given the original fine was £60 I find it a bit extorionate. Is it possible to appeal the sentence? If so, who do I appeal to?

Thanks.
andy_foster
QUOTE (wibble @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 13:15) *
Had a court date start of July for a speeding offence, but ultimately after the O'Halloran case failed, and reading the horror stories on here, I decided not to attend.

Received a letter today stating I'm ordered to pay £320! £120 fine and £200 of CPS costs.

I'm not worried about the points on my license but given the original fine was £60 I find it a bit extorionate. Is it possible to appeal the sentence? If so, who do I appeal to?


Bit late now, but if you'd decided that you were no longer going to fight, you should have changed your plea. You might have been entitled to a discount of up to 1/3 off the fine, and would probably have avoided the bulk of the costs.

For up to 10mph above the limit, I'd expect a "thinking point" of £60-£100. Failing to attend isn't going to make the mags sympathetic.

You can appeal against sentence to the Crown Court, but it would be very difficult to argue that the mags shouldn't have exceeded the fixed penalty amount after you chose to ignore/reject an offer of a fixed penalty.
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