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Calvin
Date of alleged offence 23/12/2006

NIP received 19/02/07
Email Desputing the validity of the NIP sent 13/03/07
Response to Email received by the CTO 15/3/07(details as follows)

Heddlu Gogledd Cymru North Wales Police
Swyddfa Docynnau Ganolog Central Ticket Office
Adran Gweinyddu Cyfiawnder Administration of Justice Department
Ffordd Victoria Victoria Road
PRESTATYN PRESTATYN
LL19 7TD LL19 7TD Ffôn/Tel: 01745 859676
*cto.enquiries@nthwales.pnn.police.uk


Oriau Swyddfa: 9.30yb - 12.30yp Office Hours: 9.30am - 12.30pm
(Dydd Llun i Ddydd Gwener) (Monday to Friday)


15/03/2007

Dear Sir/Madam,

I refer to the above Notice number and the associated correspondence received, the contents of which have been noted.

I must advise that the original Notice of Intended Prosecution was sent to the Registered Keeper according to DVLA records at the time of the alleged offence on 27/12/06, thus making it within the 14 day rule. Therefore all legal obligations have been adhered to.

If you wish to contest the above, you will have to elect for a court hearing in writing and all disclosure for the file will be made available.

Please duly complete and return the Notice sent on 19/02/07 prior to 29/03/07.

I trust this now clarifies matters for you.

Yours faithfully,


CUSTOMER SERVICE TEAM
CENTRAL TICKET OFFICE


On the 28/03/07 I sent the Letter attached to the NIP disputing the validity of NIP received. I had signed the NIP and dated it on 22/02/07(in the section asking me to name the driver I wrote see attached) and also in a seperate envelope (unattached to the NIP) a PACE Witness Statement (template provided by pepipoo) naming myself as the driver

The Text of the letter attached to the NIP disputing it's validity is as follows

Dear Central Ticket Office,

REF: - Notice of Intended Prosecution

I received your letter dated 19th of February 2007, the references for which are detailed above. I have enclosed a copy of the Notice sent to me recently, for ease of cross-reference.

You have written to me because I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle mentioned in your Notice. My address is correct as per the details at DVLC, and the vehicle was not a Company car, and was neither hired nor borrowed.

No Officer spoke to me at the time of the alleged offence, and no accident took place. Also, no Police person has spoken with me at or near the time and place detailed in your Notice. The written Notice is the first indication from you of any intention to prosecute.

Your Notice details the alleged offence as 13:00 on the 23/12/2006. The Notice is dated 19th of February 2007, and it came to me by post, received on the 22nd of February. At the time of opening the mail item from you, I signed and dated the Notice in a space at the bottom of the page.

Including the day of the alleged offence, this was 61st day from the date detailed in your Notice.

Following discussions with our solicitor, please note that the Notice cannot be acted upon as it is time-expired. For this Notice to have been valid, it ought to have been with me within 14 days of the alleged offence.

I have been advised that I should write back to you with these comments.

Yours sincerely

Calvin Wynne Davies

On the 5/04/07 Received letter dated 03/04/07 this was Conditional offer letter £60 and 3 penalty points (ignored letter)
On the 04/05/07 Received letter dated 03/05/07 informing me that I had 7 days to respond to the Conditional offer or it would expire (ignored this letter also.)

On the 27th of June Received a Summons to appear before Magistrates Court.

Date of Information/Complaint 31/05/07
Case Number
Date of Summons 01/06/07

When reading the satements provided: they have ommitted my "See Attached" letter disputing the validity of the NIP from the Proof of Written statements provided to the court on the 31/05/07 and have attached the Pace witness statement provided on the same day to the NIP - this could infer that the "See Attached" written by myself in section 4 of the NIP refers to the PACE witness statement and not the actual letter attched to it desputing it's validity.

I would like advice on the following points -

1) Do I now simply respond by Pleading not guility - request the attendance of the witnesses and Full disclosure of the evidence against me (photographic)

2) Or do I contact the Magistrates clerk and inform him that the letter which was attached to the NIP has been ommited from the Information presented on the 31/05/07 and ask that the information be re-submitted with the letter disputing the NIP

3) Or do I have a case in stating that the information has not been presented to the court within 6 months of the date of the alleged offence (23/12/07) and therfore can not be acted upon.

I have 7 days to respond from the date of receiving the notice the 26th of June 2007.

Your guidance and assistance will be very much appreciated
7159keith
Your post says the information was laid on 31/5/07 so the summons is within the six months, so it is valid. Suggest you go to the "read this first" section and do the NIP wizard so people have information to give advice on.
Calvin
Thank you,I had assumed that the 23rd of May was the cut off date. The original NIP was sent to the previous owner off the vehicle, this is despite the fact that I was the recorded keeper of the vehicle at the time of the offence - North Wales police then traced back from the previous owner to the garage that I purchased the vehicle from in june 2006. Therefore despite this error, I believe that the NIP issued was valid- I did not know this at the time, so I then completed the PAce Statement.

Am I able to request that the information be re - laid as the letter attached mentioned in section 4 has been ommitted?
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 16:08) *
I had assumed that the 23rd of May was the cut off date.


23rd December + 6 months = 23rd June.
Calvin
Yes.. Thank you I think that we have established that I am a terrible mathimatician.. however in my defence I counted from the date of the alleged offence 23/12/06 and the date that the summons was received 27/06/07. (hence the title "summons received after 6 months from date of offence")

However I would be greatful if members could consider the other two points that I have raised:
namley do I:
Simply proceed to pleading not guilty - and awaiting a trial date - hoping that the 29th of June ruling is favourable and that the Pace staement is considered inadmissable as evidence.

Or do I have a valid recourse -by asking the CPS or the Magistrates cleark why the letter that was attached to the NIP has not been submitted and requesting that the omitted letter along with all other papers that were presented on the 31/05/07 be re-submitted by the CPS?
Thank you
nemo
QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 19:49) *
namley do I:
Simply proceed to pleading not guilty - and awaiting a trial date - hoping that the 29th of June ruling is favourable and that the Pace staement is considered inadmissable as evidence.

Do you have to enter a plea within the next 72 hours ? If not, then I'd wait until early next week and let the dust settle on the ECtHR verdict (whichever way it may be)..

QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 19:49) *
Or do I have a valid recourse -by asking the CPS or the Magistrates cleark why the letter that was attached to the NIP has not been submitted and requesting that the omitted letter along with all other papers that were presented on the 31/05/07 be re-submitted by the CPS?

Let sleeping dogs lie. You haven't even entered a plea yet so the CPS are under no obligation to disclose any evidence on which they propose to rely at this stage.

If you do enter a NG plea, you will receive a more comprehensive summons 'bundle'. This may be drip fed to you or it may be delivered in one go. Either way, it has to be disclosed (received by you) no later than 7 days prior to the trial proper.
Calvin
Thank you for the advice, I had decided to wait until the 6th day before responding NG by registerd post, but would still be interested in knowing if there is any way in which I could delay further - ie that information submmited in the summons papers had omitted the attached letter that I sent in with the NIP. My concern is, that as the summons pack stands it seems as if the NIP is refering to the PACE statement and not the letter that was attached this has somehow failed to to appear in the Information pack submitted on the 29/05/07 - there are many instances where the signed NIP attached to the PACE statement has been accepted by North Wales Magistrates as evidence against the driver, they have taken the view that as the NIP is signed then any information submitted in association to the alleged offfence is accepted as evidence aginst the accused.

An interesting fact, despite being one of the least densly populated areas in the UK recent data released shows that North Wales Police are the most active of all forces in enforcement of speeding offences - on avearge each memeber of the the north wales public has paid an equivlent of £5.82p per head - which is the highest revenue amount per person in the UK.(based on 2005/2006 figures)

In my case I am accused of travelling at 37 miles per hour, As I was entering a 30 zone on a rural road that North Wales police Arrive Alive Partnership have defined as an area of Community Concern - I freely admit that for the first 25 meters of enetring the zone that I had probably been slowing down from around 55 to eventually around 27/28 mls per hour at 25 meters and then continued my journey at below the limit. Whilst I accept that 1 mile an hour over the limit within the zone is regarded as an absolute offence, surley there has to be a sense of fairplay, I was slowing down as I eneterd the zone from a national speed limit area, to me speeding is travelling at speeds far in excess of the limit and continuing to do so for a prolonged distance... Not 25 meters...
alphanov
Sadly, and I know that this is not what you want hear, if you exceed the speedlimit posted by the sign even as little as one millimeter past the sign then you are committing an offence.

Good luck with your quest and hopefully after tomorrow the cash cows are put out to graze!
nemo
QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 21:17) *
..there are many instances where the signed NIP attached to the PACE statement has been accepted by North Wales Magistrates as evidence against the driver,

Out of interest, why did you sign the NIP if you intended to fight by submitting a PACE Witness Statement ?

QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 21:17) *
Whilst I accept that 1 mile an hour over the limit within the zone is regarded as an absolute offence, surley there has to be a sense of fairplay,

Not a chance of that in North Wales, I'm afraid..

QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 21:17) *
I was slowing down as I entered the zone from a national speed limit area, to me speeding is travelling at speeds far in excess of the limit..

That's not how the scammers (or the law) sees it.

And scamming just within a speed limit change has to be one of their favourite haunts nationwide..
Calvin
Question by Nemo
Out of interest, why did you sign the NIP if you intended to fight by submitting a PACE Witness Statement ?

Dear nemo,
my first line of defence was to challenge the validity of the NIP - this was not received by myself until 61 days after the alleged offence, in order to challenge this I had to sign and date, and write see attached in section 4 of the NIP - (contents of the letter in my first post) this was done to establish the fact that the NIP was not received by myself until 61 days.

I then sent them copies of the documents, they then sent me a reply (agin full copy of response by Central ticket office in my first post)

they stated that we "must advise that the original Notice of Intended Prosecution was sent to the Registered Keeper according to DVLA records at the time of the alleged offence on 27/12/06, thus making it within the 14 day rule. Therefore all legal obligations have been adhered to."

It transpires that although the DVLA had my details as the owner(RK) as from the 26/06/06
the Police database did not and they had sent the NIP to the previous keeper - I'm not going to go in to the details - but the be all and end all is that despite not being received within 14 days - the NIP is Valid and stands.

In order to fulfil my obligations under the RTA, I submitted a PACE satement this was sent in a seperate envelope on the same day as the NIP with its attached letter. So the signed NIP statement which says see attached referes to the letter disputing it's validity (dated 22/02/07) and not the PACE statement that was dated 28/03/7. In all honesty I had by this time decided to try a time out strategy and felt that the PACE statement would probably work better, as I would retain a slim chance of disputing the fact that they had any evidence against me, as I had not completed the details on their form, had I done this, I would not have any chance as this would be considered as an admission of guilt - at least with the decision pending tomorrow I still have a slim chance.. (but given NWP zero tolerance stance) I doubt it.

This why I'm keen to see if there is any way in which i can force them to re-submitt the evidece (statements) presented on the 29/05/07 as the attached letter reffered to in my NIP is missing from the document pack- if they had to re-submitt the papers there may be a slim chance (hope even) that It would time out as the original presented information was not complete and one could argue misleading as they have attached the Pace Statement to the NIP. infering that the see attached note refers to the PACE statement.
sputnik365
QUOTE (Calvin @ Thu, 28 Jun 2007 - 23:00) *
It transpires that although the DVLA had my details as the owner(RK) as from the 26/06/06


If you can prove this then you may be OK.
They have to show that they could not reasonably have served on the right person within 14 days
If your details were on the DVLA database in June '06 (6 months before the offence) I doubt that the fact that they couldn't be bothered to update there own database would qualify
Anyone know more about this?
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