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CPhoenix
Hiya guys,

Thanks in advance for any assistance anyone can give.

About 9 days ago I was served with a PCN after parking on 'what now turns out to be' a single yellow line and on my return I then notice the "No parking between 1pm-2pm" sign.

The confusion is that originally this was a double yellow but part of the street has dubiously scrubbed out the 2nd line (parts of it were still visible). Also the single yellow changes back into a double without any T bars to show any difference between the two areas. Naturally I assumed that I was parking in a legitimate space where both lines were in the process of being removed.

Unfortunately, I probably wont be able to get photos until tomorrow but based on the description above.. its this my own fault at mis-reading the roadsigns - or the council's fault for not marking them correctly?

Cheers

CP.
rp.
Based on what you have said, where a single yellow line changes to a double yellow line then a t-bar is required.

If a t-bar is not present then the road marking cannot be enforced and is invalid. Furthermore, if a double yellow line is damaged then it is also not enforceable.

If you need any more information then you should find the details you need on my own thread in this forum.
CPhoenix
Thanks for that and your thread makes for a very interesting read biggrin.gif - Can't believe the council is backing their own side to hilt, in face of such evidence.

I'll post photos & a draft of my letter tomorrow morning.
CPhoenix
Okay I've got the photos:-

As you can see the double yellows do not have a T bar (or Transverse mark) where they change to single yellow, as per section 20.3 of the traffic signs manual (that said there is the slightest yellow smudge on the kerbstone but nowhere enough to be deemed as valid).



The next picture shows that there is no repeated transverse marks on the road or kerbstones as outlined in section 20.9:-



I'll just throw in these two photos for reference but they show that the 2nd line has been removed with the minimal amount of effort and at the opposite end of the road the T-bar is partially there but obscured by the grate.




So before I take my time to write a replying letter to the council, am I right in disputing this? (I genuinely thought that the lines weren't supposed to be there and it was the council's half baked attempt at trying to remove both! - goes to show that I hold their workman ship in high regard eh?)

Cheers

CP
rp.
Nice photos!

I see this as being a rather clear cut case.

You really will find all the answers you need on my thread.

Please take a read and make detailed notes as you go along. Make sure you understand the various points of law on which you would hope to rely when you make your representation.

Then, if you require any further clarification on any points, please post on your thread and send me a PM with a link to your updated thread.

All the best!
CPhoenix
Sweet - letter printed out & sent.

Lets see how/when/if they reply biggrin.gif
rp.
You are welcome to post your letter on your thread for review if you like smile.gif
DW190
QUOTE (rp. @ Wed, 6 Jun 2007 - 16:57) *
You are welcome to post your letter on your thread for review if you like smile.gif

To late to review:
QUOTE
Sweet - letter printed out & sent.


But we would still like to see it.

I'll bet they reject any informal appeal.
CPhoenix
To tell the truth - I leeched your original letter but re-worded bits of it (since I had to get it posted by that afternoon - otherwise I would have missed out on the 14 day reply time). I'll edit this post when I get back into work.

Btw. I'm expecting they will reject the first letter thus why I didn't put much effort into it. The next letter will be more thorough.
DW190
QUOTE (CPhoenix @ Thu, 7 Jun 2007 - 07:34) *
To tell the truth - I leeched your original letter but re-worded bits of it (since I had to get it posted by that afternoon - otherwise I would have missed out on the 14 day reply time). I'll edit this post when I get back into work.

Btw. I'm expecting they will reject the first letter thus why I didn't put much effort into it. The next letter will be more thorough.


That's ok. Its share and share alike on here.

Don't be to specific with the formal appeal to the council. Save all the case law for the adjudicator.
rp.
QUOTE (CPhoenix @ Thu, 7 Jun 2007 - 07:34) *
To tell the truth - I leeched your original letter but re-worded bits of it

It's good to hear that someone else has benefitted from my letter! That's why I posted it on my thread. Also, glad that you mentioned it to me in advance as a matter of courtesy. I do like that letter.

QUOTE (CPhoenix @ Thu, 7 Jun 2007 - 07:34) *
Btw. I'm expecting they will reject the first letter thus why I didn't put much effort into it. The next letter will be more thorough.

More thorough? Than my letter? I would be interested to see that, if indeed it can even be done! lol

QUOTE (DW190 @ Thu, 7 Jun 2007 - 08:42) *
Don't be to specific with the formal appeal to the council. Save all the case law for the adjudicator.

Good point DW. This is my only reservation about this letter, in hindsight.

I deliberately didn't enclose photographs or actual printouts of the relevant diagrams with the letter because I thought this would be giving the Council too much info and assistance. My intention was to keep something more tangible for the adjudication - ie a picture tells a thousand words, especially when the person who have previously written to is probably illiterate anyway.

So, I think the letter sets out all of the relevant legal authorities in succinct but necessary detail. If someone with a brain read the letter - ie a solicitor or anyone with legal training - then they would quickly back down and drop the case.

So from that angle, I think it is a good letter to use at the 'formal representation' stage, because it gives the applicant a good indicator of who they are dealing with. For example, if a Council still have the tenacity to reply to this letter when the facts are clearly stacked against them, then they are clearly heading for their own demise at adjudication. This provides the applicant with much assurance that their adjudication will be successful and fun.

Phoenix, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you have used this letter for your first 'less-formal' representation?

If so, then my only concern would be that perhaps you have now given the Council a little too much of your 'A material' early on. I hope you haven't given them time to prepare. And I hope you have an idea of what you will say when required to submit a formal representation.
DW190
When its war (I'm sure he will agree wink.gif ) you do not tell the enemy what weapons you will be using on the battlefield. It gives them the info required to defend themselves. Only give them a little shrapnel at the beginning saving both barrels for the broadside when the referee is present.
CPhoenix
Errrr oh bugger dry.gif - definately both barrels..... but the gun was point at my feet at the time.

Letter taken from RP's thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=17681
QUOTE
5th June 2007.


Notice Serial: xxxxxx
Registration: xxxx xxx

Dear Sir or Madam,

I'm writing to you with reference to the above Penalty Charge Notice (see attached) left by Parking Attendant 339.

I would like to bring to your attention the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. Specifically, diagram 1081,1 of Schedule 6 (see attached).

The legislation prescribes exactly what constitutes an enforceable road marking. As you can see from the photographs of the road markings in question, which I have attached, the yellow line on which my vehicle was parked does not comply with the regulations set out in law. This single yellow line is therefore not enforceable. This parking ticket should therefore have not been issued and must now be voided.

Please contact me as soon as possible when this has been actioned.


Yours Sincerely,


As you've read.. I also sent 2 photos. icon_hang.gif
(Suppose this could be put as an example of how NOT to do it but thats what you get for doing things in a rush and trying to fit it inbetween projects at work).

Okay... so damage control.... the only two photos I've sent are of the missing T-Bar - I haven't made any reference to section 20.9 or 1019 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bb.gif).
Do I still have a 3rd leg to stand on? (as the other two have possibly been shot off tongue.gif ).
rp.
It would appear that we have been talking at cross purposes. wacko.gif

When you said 'letter', I thought you meant this letter. Or 'the letter', as I prefer to refer to it.

But it appears that the letter which you sent was in fact this letter. Or 'the first letter', as of course, there is more than one letter on my thread.

I would say that, in the first instance, you sent the right letter. You can therefore probably disregard my earlier points about giving too much information away to the Council at this early stage.

Not as tactful as DW's preferred approach, but then, he is a veteran.

If you're starting out, as I assume you are, then I don't think you can't go far wrong with the letter you have sent.

May I suggest - if you want advice on this forum, and you want to use letters from other people's threads, then why not mention it to the originator of the letter, merely out of courtesy. Nobody minds a leach. However, receiving a note from an expressly grateful leach is a pleasure. sleep.gif
CPhoenix
My apologies, the original plan was to completely write my own in my own words.
Unfortunately, with time running out for an appeal against the PCN & work pressuring me for more blood,sweat & tears - I had to leech off your kind self and tell you afterwards. Anyway, I've now ammended the post above paying homage and will endevour to ensure I handle things in the correct way in the future biggrin.gif
rp.
Not at all, old chap. You are more than welcome to use the template letters on this forum.

Just be sure to be specific with your actions and intentions when requesting assistance from others.

You are off to a flying start.

Good luck!
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