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jeffreyarcher
All,

I subscribe to a Yahoo Groups list. A consequence of the Privy Council Ruling on self-incrimination has recently been posted. I am copying part of it here.

...what did arise is that S172 can require self incrimination ONLY for
'modest' penalties - £1,000 at the time - and when no jail is involved

Since then there has been at least one Hit and Run death where charges
could not be laid because neither lad who admitted being in the car could
say who was driving. ...


£1,000 is only 33 MPH over the limit at £30 / MPH over, and with the increasing occurrences of jail for high speed offences, even with no other factors; i.e. crashes, injuries etc, such 'invalid' NIPs are likely to become increasingly prevalent.

Mika, if you want more info as to poster etc., let me know.
Mika
Hi Jeffrey,

This is interesting, and have you read the details of this case?

Due to the speed involved, and the manner in which the vehicles were being driven, the police had mentioned possible prosecution for “more serious” motoring offences, in the correspondence that accompanied the NIP. The argument that you have raised, about “self incrimination”, was exactly how the Judge interpreted the law in that case.

Unfortunately I think that the police can very easily get around the problem, by not mentioning the potential ‘punishment’ when they issue the section 172 notice/NIP.

Furthermore, it is completely beyond me why the police keep sending out the Bloomfield “bluff and bluster” letters:

“Can you prove that you returned the section 172 notice?”

“Yes – here is a threatening letter form the police that proves they were in receipt of it”. icon_eek.gif

They may start to 'wise up', and this is why I recommend that everyone should copy the completed NIP, in front of a witness, and return it by Special Delivery. icon_idea.gif
jeffreyarcher
The link you posted is an old one. AIUI there were two of these cases, one in Scotland, referred to at the bottom of the article, and one in England (I presume the subject of this article). In both cases, the accused won in both the original court and in the first appeal. The Scottish one went to the Privy Council (AIUI, the Appeal Court in Scotland; although it would appear that this was somehow binding in English cases too) and, in what must be the most scandalous verdict of a superior court in living memory, they decided that motorists guilty of minor offences (not murderes, rapists, child molesters, war criminals or major fraudsters) should have their right to silence removed. The lunatics are surely in charge of the asylum now. icon_evil.gif

The point and importance of my first post is that the copied bits referred to that Privy Council ruling. Prior to that information, I (like I'm sure most drivers) thought that because of the ruling, we were always obliged to self-incriminate. This is not so. If there is a possibility of a > £1000 fine or imprisonment, legal advice should be sought as to whether you require to complete the NIP at all, based on that Privy Council ruling.
Mika
Hi Jeffrey,

Very interesting point because, as you probably already know, the maximum fine for speeding on a Motorway is always £2500. So, as a result of the of the Privy Council ruling, those accused of speeding on a Motorway may never need to compete a section 172 notice. icon_eek.gif
Odd Job
Anyone prepared to start a test case ?? rolleyes.gif
Roger
I am prepared to start a test case if it seems the best option open to me at the time - though I'm not going to go out of my way to land a camera pull just to do so... tongue.gif

One thing I guarantee is that I will *never* roll over and kick my legs in the air to a non-roadworks dual carriageway/motorway camera speeding pull ever, on the grounds that I do not exceed the speed safe for road conditions.
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