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sparky9334
Hi,

I have recieved a NIP for doing a 77 in a 50 on the M4, approaching the tolls in Wales (coming from London). I've read the other topics on this, seems like a favoured spot for the Welsh bobbies!

The date of offence was 11th November 2006 and the NIP has just come through to me today (2nd May 2007), addressed in my name but to my WORK address. How does this relate to any 6 month rules I've heard about?

It was a hire car the we at work were using during a new systems rollout. As such the driving was shared between 3 of us who were working. The hire car was my responsibility, but as it was so long ago, we cannot for the life of us remember who was driving at that time, as we were driving all over the country for several weeks.

The NIP just says CAMERA DEVICE, can I assume its a mobile camera \ radar and not static? I've heard from several people that I can request details of the calibration of the devices and officer competencies reports in handling the device, and if they cannot provide these then I can contest it?

Of course if necessary i will ask for a photo to determine who it was, but really just wanted some advice from you guys. its my first post but one of my good friends recomended this site.

Thanks in advance,

Andy.
mrdc
Firstly could you please fill in the NIP Wizard and then paste the results into this thread.[/size] [size="2"]As the date of the incident was the 11th November the 6 months is almost up. So I would suggest you do nothing until just before the 28 days is up, send them a PACE statement to ensure you cannot be done for S172 and you should be home and dry.
sparky9334
Apologies, here is the Wizard results.....

These are the answers you've given so far:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

Based on the answers you've given we recommend that you consider:



As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you. Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.
mrdc
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:17) *
Apologies, here is the Wizard results.....

These are the answers you've given so far:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

Based on the answers you've given we recommend that you consider:



As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you. Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.


You have only done one page, if you could tick the box to take you onto the other page that will provide us with a lot more information
sparky9334
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Gwent
Date of the offence: - November 2006
Date of the NIP: - 170 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 171 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M4 Near Tolls Plaza Rogiet Monmouthshire w/b
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Hire car through work
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Driving towards tolls on M4 Wales, driving West. We had a hire car we were using through work to visit several offices around the country, and we shared the driving. We believe it was a camera on the bridge over the M4 approaching the tolls after it goes from 70 to 50mph. Th NIP was in my name but to my work address.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, the reasonable diligence test doesn't apply to you. Therefore, you are only required to provide such information as is in your power to give (e.g. the names and addresses of the possible drivers).

    You should reply within the 28 day period and explain the circumstances in a covering letter.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v2.2.3: Wed, 02 May 2007 16:26:17 +0100
nemo
Its a pity you cannot remember who was driving at the time of the alleged offence..

If the date of the alleged offence was 11.11.2006, then this will timeout on 12.05.2007 - timeout being the date upon which the alleged offence is time expired and cannot be prosecuted..

I am guessing that the S.172 in your possession requires to be responded to AFTER 12.05.2007 ? If that's the case, then you could have safely nominated yourself (if, indeed, you actually were driving) and then ignored any and all future correspondence from the scammers on the grounds that the alleged speeding offence would be time expired and no further action could be taken.

As it is, if you cannot genuinely recall who was driving at the time of the alleged offence, then you will need to prepare a comprehensive paper trail of the efforts you have taken (and will take) in an attempt to identify the driver. Note that the 6 month 'timeout clock' for an offence of failing to provide driver details will start ticking 28 days after the date upon which you received the NIP..
sparky9334
QUOTE (nemo @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:27) *
Its a pity you cannot remember who was driving at the time of the alleged offence..

If the date of the alleged offence was 11.11.2006, then this will timeout on 12.05.2007 - timeout being the date upon which the alleged offence is time expired and cannot be prosecuted..

I am guessing that the S.172 in your possession requires to be responded to AFTER 12.05.2007 ? If that's the case, then you could have safely nominated yourself (if, indeed, you actually were driving) and then ignored any and all future correspondence from the scammers on the grounds that the alleged speeding offence would be time expired and no further action could be taken.

As it is, if you cannot genuinely recall who was driving at the time of the alleged offence, then you will need to prepare a comprehensive paper trail of the efforts you have taken (and will take) in an attempt to identify the driver. Note that the 6 month 'timeout clock' for an offence of failing to provide driver details will start ticking 28 days after the date upon which you received the NIP..


well, it could have been me, we did so much driving over a 4 week period working 14-15 hour days, 6-7 days a week I couldn't remember my own name after it! i don't want to say it was me on the off chance they chase it up and summon me to court, even if the 6 months has expired.

The NIP came through today and it says I have 28 days to supply info. (I assume the S172 is the NIP?)
mrdc
The NIP came through today and it says I have 28 days to supply info. (I assume the S172 is the NIP?)
[/quote]


Different scamera partnerships do it in different ways. I got done exactly where you did last May and I cannot remember how Gwent did it.

You will need to make sure that your not signing a confession of the speedining. If it is a combined S172 and COFP, you might want to reply via PACE.
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:36) *
well, it could have been me, we did so much driving over a 4 week period working 14-15 hour days, 6-7 days a week I couldn't remember my own name after it! i don't want to say it was me on the off chance they chase it up and summon me to court, even if the 6 months has expired.

I agree that you should not nominate yourself unless you are certain you were the driver at the time of the alleged offence. Have you considered writing to them asking for a photograph which may assist with identification of the driver ? Do this sooner rather than later, if you so choose..

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:36) *
The NIP came through today and it says I have 28 days to supply info. (I assume the S172 is the NIP?)

The S.172 form will be annexed to / combined with the NIP.
nemo
QUOTE (mrdc @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:49) *
You will need to make sure that your not signing a confession of the speedining. If it is a combined S172 and COFP, you might want to reply via PACE.

Why ? There's absolutely nothing to be gained by submitting a PACE Witness Statement AFTER the offence has timed out (12.05.2007).

In fact, the submission of a PACE WS runs the risk of the scammers responding with a s.172 charge.. Why go there ?
mrdc
QUOTE (nemo @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:58) *
QUOTE (mrdc @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 16:49) *
You will need to make sure that your not signing a confession of the speedining. If it is a combined S172 and COFP, you might want to reply via PACE.

Why ? There's absolutely nothing to be gained by submitting a PACE Witness Statement AFTER the offence has timed out (12.05.2007).

In fact, the submission of a PACE WS runs the risk of the scammers responding with a s.172 charge.. Why go there ?





Fair poiint to make, am just trying to help the fella to the best of my knowledge.
nemo
QUOTE (mrdc @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 17:03) *
Fair poiint to make, am just trying to help the fella to the best of my knowledge.

No worries smile.gif
sparky9334
cheers for you help guys, really appreciate it.

The NIP has another page where I must fill out the my detaisl if I was driving, or who I beelive was drving. Is this the S172?

What would you do in my situation then? Request a photo saying I have no idea who was driving, or submit a PACE with the other possble drivers on? Surely the PACE would not mean I have not provided any info, jsut that I am not sure?
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 17:44) *
What would you do in my situation then?rovided any info, jsut that I am not sure?

It is imperative that you do not ignore the NIP / S.172. It would be crazy for you to be hit with a failing to supply charge when the scammers have handed you a nailed on get out of jail free card..

Me ? I'd be making a polite photo request in about a week or so. Then, assuming that 1) the scammers send one and 2) that I could determine who was driving, I'd nominate either the actual driver or myself on the s.172 form provided (rear of the NIP). I'd then copy and return the completed form by Royal Mail Special Delivery to arrive just before the 28 days has expired.

Personally, I wouldn't entertain the idea of submitting a PACE Witness Statement if I were in your shoes- there's just no need. Once you have reached the 12.05.2007, the alleged speeding offence will have time expired and cannot be prosecuted. The only potential banana skin to avoid after 12.05.2007 is a charge of failing to supply driver details. If you send a PACE WS, there is a chance you could be summoned for this offence - bear in mind this is the lawless land of Gwent we are talking about. Assuming that you don't wish to defend a completely avoidable charge, then I'd complete their paperwork as above and the job, as they say, will be a good 'un. wink.gif

Following this, just sit back and ignore any Conditional Offers, reminders or threats which came your way with complete impunity, safe in the knowledge that you can be prosecuted for neither the alleged speeding offence nor failing to provide. Happy days.. smile.gif
sparky9334
QUOTE (nemo @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 18:27) *
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 17:44) *
What would you do in my situation then?rovided any info, jsut that I am not sure?

It is imperative that you do not ignore the NIP / S.172. It would be crazy for you to be hit with a failing to supply charge when the scammers have handed you a nailed on get out of jail free card..

Me ? I'd be making a polite photo request in about a week or so. Then, assuming that 1) the scammers send one and 2) that I could determine who was driving, I'd nominate either the actual driver or myself on the s.172 form provided (rear of the NIP). I'd then copy and return the completed form by Royal Mail Special Delivery to arrive just before the 28 days has expired.

Personally, I wouldn't entertain the idea of submitting a PACE Witness Statement if I were in your shoes- there's just no need. Once you have reached the 12.05.2007, the alleged speeding offence will have time expired and cannot be prosecuted. The only potential banana skin to avoid after 12.05.2007 is a charge of failing to supply driver details. If you send a PACE WS, there is a chance you could be summoned for this offence - bear in mind this is the lawless land of Gwent we are talking about. Assuming that you don't wish to defend a completely avoidable charge, then I'd complete their paperwork as above and the job, as they say, will be a good 'un. wink.gif

Following this, just sit back and ignore any Conditional Offers, reminders or threats which came your way with complete impunity, safe in the knowledge that you can be prosecuted for neither the alleged speeding offence nor failing to provide. Happy days.. smile.gif









excellent. I'll send a photo request off next few week then and see what happens. So I should just ignore the conditional offer? What if it is not a conditional offer, as 77 in a 50 is a summons, is it not?

Where in ther law does it say I cannot be prosecduted after 6 months?
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 19:04) *
I'll send a photo request off next few week then and see what happens.

Probably a typo on your part, but send it in about a week, not a few weeks !

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 19:04) *
So I should just ignore the conditional offer? What if it is not a conditional offer, as 77 in a 50 is a summons, is it not?

They cannot issue a conditional offer until they have a statement proporting to be signed by the accused that they were the driver at the time of the alleged offence. On the grounds that they will not have this information until after 12.05.2007, then you will not / cannot receive a CoFP until after timeout.

If you receive a CoFP after timeout, you would ignore it because it would then be too late for them to prosecute you for the alleged speeding offence.

77 in a 50 is in the straight to summons speed range, agreed. However, they are unlikely to summons within a week of serving you with a Notice of Intended Prosecution, particularly since they have no evidence (to the required criminal standard) that you were the driver. So, even if they considered summonsing you after you had completed and returned the s.172 form (ie beyond timeout), there must be at least one bod at Gwent with half a braincell who would realise that the offence had time expired and no further action could be taken..

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 19:04) *
Where in there law does it say I cannot be prosecduted after 6 months?

Here wink.gif
sparky9334
QUOTE (nemo @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 19:28) *
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 2 May 2007 - 19:04) *
Where in there law does it say I cannot be prosecduted after 6 months?

Here wink.gif


What about the 6 months + 28 days I've seen mentioned. Does this not apply in this instance?

I'll send the request for a photo off on tuesday, which is the 8th May, so hopefully the phot won't even be back by the 12th when the 6months is up.
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 3 May 2007 - 17:49) *
What about the 6 months + 28 days I've seen mentioned. Does this not apply in this instance?

I'll send the request for a photo off on tuesday, which is the 8th May, so hopefully the phot won't even be back by the 12th when the 6months is up.

28 days plus 6 months from the date you received the NIP represents timeout for a failing to furnish driver details offence..

If you had remembered who was driving, then you could have averted any possibility of a FTF charge by nominating the driver AFTER 12.05.2007 but BEFORE the 28 day response window had elapsed. In this instance, the speeding would be time expired AND you would have satisfied your obligations under s.172 RTA 1988.

But since you are unable, at the moment at least, to not recall the driver at the time of the alleged offence and because no-one here would advise you to furnish a false statement, it was suggested that you submit a photo request to assist with your identification of the driver.

If, however, your memory were to be miraculously refreshed after 12.05.2007 and you were able to remember who was driving, then nominating said driver on the form provided would see the matter effectively closed, at least as far as you were concerned anyway..
sparky9334
QUOTE (nemo @ Thu, 3 May 2007 - 20:43) *
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 3 May 2007 - 17:49) *
What about the 6 months + 28 days I've seen mentioned. Does this not apply in this instance?

I'll send the request for a photo off on tuesday, which is the 8th May, so hopefully the phot won't even be back by the 12th when the 6months is up.

28 days plus 6 months from the date you received the NIP represents timeout for a failing to furnish driver details offence..

If you had remembered who was driving, then you could have averted any possibility of a FTF charge by nominating the driver AFTER 12.05.2007 but BEFORE the 28 day response window had elapsed. In this instance, the speeding would be time expired AND you would have satisfied your obligations under s.172 RTA 1988.

But since you are unable, at the moment at least, to not recall the driver at the time of the alleged offence and because no-one here would advise you to furnish a false statement, it was suggested that you submit a photo request to assist with your identification of the driver.

If, however, your memory were to be miraculously refreshed after 12.05.2007 and you were able to remember who was driving, then nominating said driver on the form provided would see the matter effectively closed, at least as far as you were concerned anyway..




so if I request a photo and I can identify who it is, if I name them after the 12/5/07 it wouldn't matter anyway? Even if the photo showed me driving, and I sent off the NIP confirming I was driving?

We were chatting about this at work today again, as we really have no idea who could have been driving, we all did various stints of driving, all shared paying for petrol, hotels etc. I doubt this constitues "reasonable diligence" but I'm not sure what else to do if the photo is inconclusive.
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 3 May 2007 - 22:24) *
so if I request a photo and I can identify who it is, if I name them after the 12/5/07 it wouldn't matter anyway? Even if the photo showed me driving, and I sent off the NIP confirming I was driving?

Correct. If you name yourself or if you name someone else, YOU would have satisfied your obligations under s.172 and you would be home and dry - on both offences of speeding and failing to provide.

If another person was nominated, they would receive their own NIP / S.172 which they would respond to by nominating themselves. They too would be home and dry..

But you must keep one eye on the latest s.172 response date. There is nothing in statute which automatically provides an extension to the 28 days they have given you to respond.

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 3 May 2007 - 22:24) *
I doubt this constitues "reasonable diligence" but I'm not sure what else to do if the photo is inconclusive.

If you do not or cannot name a driver, then you should probably expect a summons for failing to provide driver details...
sparky9334
Well, the photo has arrived! It was in second class, hand written envelope, with 3 small pics stappeled to a "With Compliments" slip, with the ref no scribbled on it. Very proffessional!

From the three pics, which are appalling quality by the way, you could probably tell that the driver was me if you saw me and the photo at the same time, and knowing the other potential drivers as I do, I doubt it is them from the photo.

The 6 months from the offence (11th November 2006) has obvioulsy now expired (on the 12th May), so what should I do now? Fill out the S172 with my name and admit it, and hope they realise the 6 months is up and I've satisfied my obligation to provide?
Monster 900
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Wed, 16 May 2007 - 18:46) *
Well, the photo has arrived! It was in second class, hand written envelope, with 3 small pics stappeled to a "With Compliments" slip, with the ref no scribbled on it. Very proffessional!

From the three pics, which are appalling quality by the way, you could probably tell that the driver was me if you saw me and the photo at the same time, and knowing the other potential drivers as I do, I doubt it is them from the photo.

The 6 months from the offence (11th November 2006) has obvioulsy now expired (on the 12th May), so what should I do now? Fill out the S172 with my name and admit it, and hope they realise the 6 months is up and I've satisfied my obligation to provide?



If the photos identify you to the extent that you are reasonably confident in naming yourself on the NIP you do not have anything to lose by doing that, as far as I can see.
Gaza
QUOTE (Monster 900 @ Wed, 16 May 2007 - 20:02) *
If the photos identify you to the extent that you are reasonably confident in naming yourself on the NIP you do not have anything to lose by doing that, as far as I can see.


And everything to lose by not doing it!


sparky9334 - it would be lunacy to risk a S.172 charge at this stage. Send the NiP back. They will probably send you a CoFP although the speed is on the high side for that. If they do ignore it and any reminders and you will be in the clear.
sparky9334
QUOTE (Gaza @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 08:28) *
QUOTE (Monster 900 @ Wed, 16 May 2007 - 20:02) *
If the photos identify you to the extent that you are reasonably confident in naming yourself on the NIP you do not have anything to lose by doing that, as far as I can see.


And everything to lose by not doing it!


sparky9334 - it would be lunacy to risk a S.172 charge at this stage. Send the NiP back. They will probably send you a CoFP although the speed is on the high side for that. If they do ignore it and any reminders and you will be in the clear.


why do they bother sending a CoFP etc when the time has passed and they can't do anything? I'd feel a bit bad about ignoring it but if you think I will get away with it then I'll do it. I'll send off the s172 next week then, so they get it before the 28 days is up.
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:06) *
why do they bother sending a CoFP etc when the time has passed and they can't do anything?

Because they are scammer chancers who rely on the fact that Joe Public is not aware of the 6 month rule. I suspect most people would (and probably do) unwittingly cough up the £60, even when it is too late for proceedings to be commenced..

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:06) *
I'd feel a bit bad about ignoring it..

Don't wink.gif

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:06) *
..but if you think I will get away with it then I'll do it.

I'll send off the s172 next week then, so they get it before the 28 days is up.

<..Monty Burns..>
excellent..
<../Monty Burns..>

To make sure everything is cast iron, don't forget to use Royal Mail Special Delivery.. smile.gif
sparky9334
QUOTE (nemo @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:44) *
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:06) *
why do they bother sending a CoFP etc when the time has passed and they can't do anything?

Because they are scammer chancers who rely on the fact that Joe Public is not aware of the 6 month rule. I suspect most people would (and probably do) unwittingly cough up the £60, even when it is too late for proceedings to be commenced..

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:06) *
I'd feel a bit bad about ignoring it..

Don't wink.gif

QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Thu, 17 May 2007 - 16:06) *
..but if you think I will get away with it then I'll do it.

I'll send off the s172 next week then, so they get it before the 28 days is up.

<..Monty Burns..>
excellent..
<../Monty Burns..>

To make sure everything is cast iron, don't forget to use Royal Mail Special Delivery.. smile.gif



cheers for your help nemo. One last question though, what if they respond back with a court summons dur to the speed. I can't ignore that can I?! Even if the 6 months has passed?
nemo
QUOTE (sparky9334 @ Sun, 20 May 2007 - 18:06) *
One last question though, what if they respond back with a court summons dur to the speed. I can't ignore that can I?! Even if the 6 months has passed?

Why not ? The 6 month rule is enshrined in law. They don't get an extension just because you exceeded the CoFP threshold by 1mph.

Nothing has changed. Send back the completed (and signed) s.172 form by Royal Mail Special Delivery and the job, as they say, will be a good 'un.. wink.gif
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