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cerbfan
Hi all,

Looking for some advice, two weeks ago after 10 years of driving I got caught speeding for the first time, pulled over on my way home from work after being recorded on an in vehicle LTI 20:20. I had just performed a safe overtake (polices words) of 3 cars on an A Road and I believe I was recorded as I was going past these cars. I was driving a very quick sports car and they said if I'd slowed down ater the overtake they would have considered letting me off. Anyway I never and got recorded at 86 in a 60, I don't actually think I was going that quickly personally. They recorded me going away from them, I never saw the video but I know that bit of road is very bumpy and my car being so stiff would be moving around substantially and I thought there would be a chance of slippage occuring. I recieved a verbal NIP and am still waiting for a summons to appear. I'm in Scotland by the way.

Then today, I got pulled over again, second time in 10 years in a different car for 80 in a 60 this time they were using a SL 700 with no video. This time I have been given a fixed penalty notice. After askign they showed me the calibration date stamped on the machine which was until November.

So I am looking possibly at 7 or 8 points here in the space of 2 weeks which leaves me a lot closer to a ban than I would like so I am considering trying to fight the first offence at least by requesting disclosure of evidence and seeing what the video shows. However the police suggested that as it was only 1mph over the fixed penalty cut off there is a good chance I will just be sent a conditional offer anyway. Which would give make me more wary of fighting it.

Any advice or suggestions?
Peter_D
You say 'recorded on an in vehicle LTI 20:20' LTi 20-20 are typr approved to operate from Camera Vans and hand help but not from within a car, they can be used thought an open side window but not through the screen. Explain about how they used the gun. Regards Peter
cerbfan
Well I'm not sure to be honest, there is no way they were out of the car as the time it took them to catch me up was minimal and I was doing an alleged 86 and they had 3 cars to pass. They must have been sat in the car when the reading was took. If it was done out of an open side window or not I'm really not sure I never got to see the video, to be honest I never asked as at the time I was not sure of my rights. All they showed me was a picture of a field where it must have been pointing when they stopped recording I assume with a speed reading on the screen.

They almost offered me a fixed penalty before they realised it was 1mph over. They were actually quite appologetic about the whole thing. I guess I will never know if it was through glass or not until it goes to court and I ask for disclosure. My dilema will come if they offer me a fixed penalty as asking for a court hearing is likely to mean an increase of points and fine as I understand it (more worried about the points than the fine to be honest).
cerbfan
Anyone other opinions?
Peter_D
What makes you think the LTI 20-20 had a video camera attachment and was being recorded. Regards Peter
cerbfan
Ah ok, it had a little TV screen at the side with a picture of a field at the side of the road and a speed, I thought they all used videos, maybe the screen was in fact just showing a still picture then instead of a paused video like I assumed.
cerbfan
OK I was stopped in the March for 86 in a 60, I was caught on an LTI 20:20, I'm dubious that I was going that fast and very uncertain that they could have got a good reading on the car anyway from where I think they were sat but would really like to see the video to find out. There is also a discrepency in the summons where it reads temporary speed limit where there was no temporary limit in force at all just the standard national speed limit. If this matters though as I was allegedly caught exceeding all british speed limits anyway i'm not sure.

The summons reads:

The charge(s) against you is/are that

(001) on xx March 2007 on the A975 Newburgh to Cruden Bay road near to Broadmuir Park, Aberdeenshire, being a length of single carriageway road, you XXX XXXX did drive a motor vehicle, namely motor car registered number XXX XXX at a speed exceeding 60 miles per hour, namely 86 miles per hour:
CONTRARY to the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) Order 1977 Paragraph 3(b); the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) (Continuation) Order 1978 and the Road Traffic Regualtion Act 1984 Sections 88 and 89


Procurator Fiscal Depute



Diet 20 .-The Court Assigns
20 ,at .m., within the DISTRICT Court-House,
as a Diet in this case

Clerk of Court

The above bit is full of blanks as shown, what does this mean? Should it have been filled in?


Ok so how do I proceed?

Do I write to the clerk of court and ask for the full unabridged tape? Am I in my rights to do this, do I need to plead innocent first? What else should I ask for, callibration certifiates, operator training records?

Do I give a time limit for supplying the evidence? Also sent are forms for me to fill in either to plead guilty, innocent or to write an explanation and these do not need to be back until 2 days before the trial in mid June.

Any help gratefully recieved.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (cerbfan @ Fri, 27 Apr 2007 - 20:50) *
There is also a discrepency in the summons where it reads temporary speed limit where there was no temporary limit in force at all just the standard national speed limit. If this matters though as I was allegedly caught exceeding all british speed limits anyway i'm not sure.

The summons reads:

The charge(s) against you is/are that
<...>
CONTRARY to the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) Order 1977 Paragraph 3(b); the 70 miles per hour, 60 miles per hour and 50 miles per hour (Temporary Speed Limit) (Continuation) Order 1978 and the Road Traffic Regualtion Act 1984 Sections 88 and 89


That is not a mistake. What we know as the NSLs were originally introduced as 'temporary' measures.
Labour governments never change, always have been, always will be liars.

QUOTE (cerbfan @ Fri, 27 Apr 2007 - 20:50) *
Do I write to the clerk of court and ask for the full unabridged tape?

I doubt that there is a tape, as you appear to have been stopped by traditional coppers.
In any case, evidence is nothing to do with the clerk of the court, you will have to get it from the PF.

QUOTE (cerbfan @ Fri, 27 Apr 2007 - 20:50) *
Am I in my rights to do this, do I need to plead innocent first?

You can certainly ask, whether you'll get is another matter (even assuming that it exists).
And yes, you have to plead NG first.

QUOTE (cerbfan @ Fri, 27 Apr 2007 - 20:50) *
What else should I ask for, callibration certifiates, operator training records?

And why would you want to ensure that the PF doesn't make a mistake by failing to prove calibration?

Seriously, since you were pulled at the time, the only way to beat this is to get a solicitor who knows what he is talking about WRT motoring offences, and hope that the PF makes a cock-up.
cerbfan
Yes I was stopped by 2 coppers but the LTI had a video screen that showed my speed on it and a field, I assumed it was videod but maybe not. How would I find out? Does this also mean that even if there was a video they could have destroyed it as all the evidence they need is the witness of the 2 officers?

What other avenues have I got to explore? I have to plead guilty or not guilty prior to arriving in court so I guess if I plead guilty I have no defence as already have admitted to it. So I need to plead not guilty to fight it. The only solicitor I have found up here who specialises in motoring offences is one in Glasgow who charges around £3K!! Is this the norm?
jeffreyarcher
Unfortunately, specialist motoring solicitors seem to be scarcer than gold dust in Scotland, so it's not possible to say what the 'norm' is.
I would think that using a Glasgow based solictor would be extremely expensive, as his travelling time would have to be paid for too.
You could have a look in the yellow pages for some local ones, and give a couple a ring and see what they have to say.
Many will claim to do motoring offences, although they won't be specialists, I have seen non-specialists succeeding.
The problem is that you don't know how good or bad they are, until it's too late.
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