IANAL but this is what I would do.

First, I would wait to see whether you get a NIP or a FPN before worrying. Once they look at their video they may decide not to bother, or may decide they can't win.

If you do get a NIP, complete and sign it. Then when an FPN arrives, plead not guilty. Ask for disclosure of the police video. That should show whether they were justified in collaring you for the speeding.

The key here is that there doesn't seem to be much evidence that your car was speeding. If what you say is right, then they were assuming that the speeding car was you, but have no evidence to back that up. Unless they had a clear sight of your car at all times, at least until they get a clear sight on your reg no, they cannot be sure you were the speeding car. They may think so, but that isn't proof.

It's a shame you answered questions about your driving, mentioning the red car etc. If that shows up on the video it will weaken your defence.

robin

Firstly it appears there were two police officers.
Did they say you would be reported for exceeding the limit?
Did they caution you? (You do not have to say anything blah blah blah)
Did they mention any video recording equipment.
What was the posted speed limit. 30? 40? National limit?

I go the ticket there and then and I agree that I should have kept my mouth shut, but they hadn't mentioned anything about a speeding ticket at that time I was just being helpful to mr plod just as "my mummy " always told me to be because I honoustly don't think I had/have done anything wrong, I think the shock showed on my face when he said "this time I am going to give you a ticket" because he looked surprised.

Especially after the other PC said that a red car was involved, I took it in the natural justice of the world (naive, moi) that if it was me that had done it, they must have seen what happened, the last thing I was expecting was a ticket, maybe a slap on the wrists on the lines of "Yeah you were forced into it, but even then you shouldn't have done it so just remember that in the future"

That's why I want to fight this, if it was me, and if it was I will hold my hand up. Then I want to say that to do the distance in the time indicated I couldn't have been speeding (I hold speeding to be a constant not a blip on the Horizon (Naive again I think ))

I said I wanted to challenge it and the PC said at the time that I would have to wait until the 28 days have elapsed.

I don't realy want to wait that long, can I take any action to face it head on now

I take it you have been given a Fixed Penalty Notice at the scene.

Did you sign anything?

Did you produce any documents prooving your identity?

Hi eddie1234567,

You would not believe how similar your case is to mine! I read it with my jaw opened!

I won't go into it on open forum as you don't know who is watching , but suffice to say I was also stopped by Tayside Police some miles after the event and was accused of doing over 90mph.

I doubt whether the video evidence will tell you or the police much as Tayside Police DO NOT KEEP copies of in-car video tapes! I have this on the highest authority.

PM me if you fancy a chat! I am going to court soon and am amassing my evidence!

Where there is an intention to prosecute, this is evidence which might be of benefit to the defence. Does this not constitute wilful destruction of evidence? If they haven't kept the in-car video then surely there should be no problem.

"I require disclosure of the in-car video since I believe it will demonstrate my innocence"

"We've not kept a copy"

"You're in breach of your statutory duty to keep all evidence relevant to an alleged offence and to make available to the defence all evidence which might weaken the prosecution's case. In doing so, you've acted so as to deny me a fair trial."

"er..."

Would it be worth sending a letter by SD now stating that you will be pleading not guilty and will be requiring disclosure of this video when the matter comes to court? Chances are that if they are going to wipe the tape then its already been done, in which case this might get them to back down.

robin

This seems odd and if it were me, I would certainly contest it.

On both the occasions that I have been stopped for speeding (1st time average 89mph on a dual carriageway, 2nd average 79mph on a motorway) I was taken into the back of the traffic car and shown my driving on the video. They explained the distance used to calculate, what the highest speed I was doing and the average that would be used for the fixed penalty.

On both occasions the police involved were out specifically to catch speeding motorists. They were very nice, said my overall driving was of a good standard but I still should not have been driving so fast. I got an SP50 for the 1st and an SP30 for the 2nd.

Tamara

Didn't sign anything but I had my Photo licence on me

Looks like it would be best to ignore the FP and wait for the summons. Plead Not Guilty and ask for full disclosure of the documented evidence/video.

Thanks for the PM eddie, I can answer you on open forum.

If you are not sure beyond reasonable doubt that it was you that was driving, then you should, of course, contest the charge and seek to clear yourself.

If you do intend to contest the FPN, then you will do one of two things: (i) Ignore the FPN and wait for your citation to appear, (ii) Write a letter to the police, telling them you decline their offer of a fixed penalty and wish to contest this in court.

Whichever scenario you choose (I would personally go for (i)), the end product will most likely be the same. That is, a citation to attend court to enter a plea will be issued. You can either plead by post, plead in person, or get a solicitor to attend and plead for you.

You may think this sounds rather daunting but it really is quite straight forward. In my own case, I have pleaded not guilty and am currently awaiting the police statements etc before I decide best on how to proceed.

One of the regulare posters on this site, The General, waited almost 2 years for his trial date to come through after various problems with police evidence and the gathering thereof.


There is, unfortunately, no formal disclosure rule in Scotland so this isn't an option. That being said, if a copy of the video is kept, you should certainly aim to acquire a copy of it. This I assure you, will not be issued to you unless you plead not guilty and give the Procurator Fiscal loads of hassle about how "important it is to my case" etc.

In the end it's your shout. For what it's worth, I would personally refuse a FPN that I was not 100% sure about and seek to establish the truth. The video may show you driving and may be banged to rights when you see it, but you can change your plea from not guilty to guilty as and when you see fit.

The General is the man north of the border for video related enquiries. I'm sure if you give him a quick PM, he would gladly advise you.

Best of luck.

Cheers for this, I think I will wait until the FPN runs out and then plead not guilty and try to get the video to see if it was me.

If the video does show me then there is nothing I can do about that from a not guilty point of view but do you know if there is any other cases where "I was forced to do it" defence in a guilty plea can be used and bring in the fact that I left at X time and arrived at the place at Y time therefore this is a blip caused by outside influence. Or is it, as I fear, tough.

I notice on the ABD website a lawyer firm in Fife that deals with motoring offences (the only one in "my part of the country, ie the east coast" that I have seen advertised) so was going to contact him when I get the summonse.

Does anyone have any other good firm in Scotland that I should also consider.

Eddie

The Man - well there's a first - cheers FF.

You've had good advice up to now. Basically I'd go to court - my own experience is that the more you dig, the worse it gets for them!

There is no formal disclosure in Scotland, but you should be able to get a copy of the tape. When you do this, make sure you get a copy of the whole tape, not just the part that shows the section relating to you. The tape is classed as a document (in legal terms) therefore you need all of it. Mika will be able to tell you the relevant section in law.

In my case the equipment was faulty, but the fault was exposed not when they were doing the time/distance measure on me, but earlier whilst they were in pursuit of me. The evidence was thrown out on the basis of reliablity and credibility.

Anyway - point being - you need a copy of the evidence to have it independently assesed by an expert (Pepipoo)!

Expect every dirty trick in the book and don't expect fair treatment by the police of procurator fiscal service - they are out to get you. Keep all correpondence simple and straight-forward. You will probably need the assistance of a lawyer a some point and a decent one is a nightmare to find. You definately have to be up for it and happy to spend a few quid on fighting it. If not - I'd loosen my buckle now.

Good luck, let us know how things develop and I'm sure you'll get the support you need.

The General

I spoke to this law firm some time ago and the solicitor I spoke to was very negative and told me I should have accepted the FPN. Questionable advice I would suggest.

Cheers for the reply, just back from pub so will digest when I am sober tomorrow.

But annoyed just now, coming back from Glasgow today some prat went past me and the passenger threw out a cigarette butt, landed in my side window/front strut. I had my window open.

Thought oh god what to do, but then the wind took it and thought no more of it, then an interesting smell arrived, mmmm whats that burning......

Oh that would have been me.

It must have been one hell of a sight, me trying to stop the butt burning me , leaning over steering wheel, left hand behind back, grimicing in agony, trying to signal to the vehicles I was in the process of overtaking I was coming in fast. Since I was overtaking at the time a very interesting test of judging distance/time/burning rates and big lorry in the layby I entered. Brakes got a good test, believe me.

Anyway, one shirt ruined, one back of seat with melted material and one lovely fag burn in the seat. It's a brand new Golf TDI only 2 weeks old (company car, couldn't afford one myself) and smelling of a burnt ashtray. But now sick as a pig

Cheers FF, any others you have come across.

I would be absolutly useless trying to do this myself, would freeze up and cow tow (if that is how you spell it (beer in spelling out)) to the powers that be.

Hi, all.

It is now over 3 months or so since I got the FPN from the luverly constable

This morning another Offer of Fixed Penalty dropped through the door from the Procurator Fiscal giving me another 28 days :?

The original FPN says I was exceeding the speed limit in a 70 mile zone, this offer says that I contravened 70, 60, 50 (temporary... blah blah blah.

Does this have any bearing on the initial offer, there were no temporary limits in place on the date in question

Cheers

Eddie

ff,

I think you'll find there is! Isn't Scotland part of Europe, or does devolution go further than I thought?

If so, you may be interested in Dowsett v. The United Kingdom (2003).


The court that says only in rare cases e.g. where national security would be threatened can this right be infringed. That hardly applies here. So I should think that if they did not supply the video it would be a clear breach Article 6 (Right to a Fair Trial).

Useful thing, European law. And don't forget that this judgement, backing up earlier judgements, is again against The United Kingdom.

Hi Lance,


I think you'll find there isn't!


This is true within the framework of Scottish law. Europe may well be different, but writing to the Procurator Fiscal and saying "I demand you disclose me this evidence because Dowsett v UK says you must" is likely to be met with: ignorance, intolerance, suspicion and contempt. And not necessarily in that order.

We have to remember that just because "Europe" says something, doesn't mean every lowly court and member of the legal profession in the UK is aware of it. I agree with your reasoning of course, but I am not so naive as to believe that a request for disclosure in Scotland accompanied by a judgment of Dowsett (et al) v UK will have the desired effect. This country is still deeply insular, and the "meddlings" of Europe are still held in deep suspicion in this country.

ff,
I do understand your comments about ignorance. But ignorance of the law is no excuse!

You cannot say that European law is different from Scottish law, because Scottish law is obliged to take into account decisions from Europe.

If you want to see a reference to disclosure in Scottish law, then, as Jackie has helpfully pointed out to me, you can have a look at the Equality of Arms section from your Brown v. Stott link.


So perhaps you could mention that in your correspondence with the Procurator Fiscal.

I understand that it is not an easy task, but I do think that it is worth doing.

ff,

I agree with Lance.

You may not be the formal concept of “disclosure” in Scotland but you do have the principle of equality of arms. Furthermore, the PF isn’t really going to be able to argue that he hasn’t heard of Stott v Brown.

The principle of equality of arms is very straightforward – does the defendant have access to all of the material evidence that the prosecution have access to?

For example, if they have a one and a half hour traffic video and only chose to use five seconds, then that is up to them. The crucial point is that they had had the whole recording at their disposal in the first place.

My suggested approach in court would be: “why can’t I have the crucial evidence, have you got something to hide?”

For example Mr Brunstrom uses Lastec traffic videos to entertain members of the press but, poor old Mark, may be being deliberately deprived of the crucial evidence in his case.

Well after 2 days of food poisoning , I have today woken up feeling a lot better and actually able to eat.

But on the down side the PFS has now send me papers saying that my case will be heard at mid/end of Nov. What a nice get well present.

Anyway just wondering what to do now. On the reply form there is a place for 1) Not Guilty, 2) Guilty and 3) written explanation. So don't know whether to just plead the not guilty or to put on the not guilty and a written explanation.

keep your cards to your chest, you don't have to put reasons at the moment

Well forms now filled out and returned NG and let me know the Trial date. Trousers definatly taking a brown looking hue now.


When can I now make requests for video etc

Have now received through letter from the court saying that Intermediate diet is set for 19 Jan 2005.

Right then how do we procede from here then

Definatly feeling edgy

Move to Cases in Progress at request of author!

eddie,

You can now formally start requesting all of the evidence that you feel relevant to your case.

Give me a shout and I'll forward you letters in Word format that I submitted to the Procurator Fiscal in the Tayside region.

The Procurator Fiscal has now written back to me with



If the police are going to give information in evidence shouldn't I get this before the trial

The PF has now written confirming that there is no video.

The police did say after cautioning me when I asked to see the video that they would keep it for me. Any comments anyone

A lawyer aquaintence said to me in passing (family member so not wanting to involve them, looks like favours etc), I was bitching at new year about this and they overheard, that if the police don't have any copy of readout, print out ie any output or a couple of stills then it would be hard pressed for them to coroberate the evidence with just their word against mine if there were similar types, size, colour of vehicles going up the hill

Any comments on this one

Also last call for Scottish Lawyers or names of ones, I now have to go to court to call police liars and need someone that can do this

Don't know if it was a good idea or not, but just called the PF office to ask about the video evidence and he once again confirmed that their is no video. I mentioned that the police said there was and they would keep it and he said he would write to them again.

I asked about the markers used to measure the speeding vehicle in question and he said write to the police, I commented on other things andhe said he had his statements from the police.

I asked since he had his statements am I not entitled to them as well as I asked for all evidence, he said once again write to the police. It's not my job to run around after things. Mentioned equality of arms and he said that's what I will get if I ask the police...

Also the reason he said there is no video is that VASCAR doesn't use it and it's only switched on in pursuits so going back to the original main post of this thread, they  weren't following me. So things must have gone like this: They had to see me, get a break in traffic before following, get through all the traffic behind me........ and mine is the only golf on the road so must be me:- After going through 3 roundabouts and rush hour traffice with many cars of similar size style and colour no doubt one or 2 golfs but definatly 2 peugeots (tried to get in one 2 weeks ago thought it was mine from the back angled)  Aaaaggggghhhhhhhh

Hi eddie,

Your case sounds more like mine at every turn.  Tell you what I'll do; send me a PM with your home address and I'll send you a video that I made up of the recreation of my alleged offence.

It shows conclusively that the police statement is a pile of donkey sh!te.  It will also give you a flavour of what you may need to do when preparing a credible defence.

You have such a persuasive way with words.

Aaagggh this is getting worse, now thinking it was not me, then considering the evidence again maybe it was but had to do it, from reading this I am starting to think it isn't me again.

If you read the original post again,
5 silver cars in front of me (by the distance from the old filling station (those that know the area know what I am on about) and the hill going into dundee, about .5 to .75 of a mile I would say (firefly any comment on distance if you know it). M

Then clear road, no two other cars. I wasn't behind anyone, if I was why didn't they get that ones speeding........ otherwise at an alleged 91 I would have gone through them

Then me

Then 2 big freaking lorries and a red car (which he said "a red car involved")

Also the statemetn to them they have only written down part of it, the bit of a red car pushing me on, they have not made the full statement where I told them about the lorries.

Question: If the coopers got me into the car and then chatted to me, making me think I wasn't getting a ticket and engaged in a 5 minute conversation with me about the incident, taking Brown v Stott into the equation where they said they cooper was allowed to ask enough to ascertain who was driving, does this extended conversation go against that and they should have cautioned me etc before this.

Once again Aaaaggghhhh

i Definetly Think you will be ok on this one,
it seems all the factors are in your favour, and there was at LEAST 6 diffrent exits another car could have left the road in that small bit of road,

Good luck and be good !
PS ALL of the fixed cams up and down the 64 miles of that road are set to go off about 83 MPH my Ford focus will go thru at 80 MPH all time!

WHOA, thats a dangerous assumption to make......all speedo's are different....  :oops:  :roll:

And they can change the trigger speed on a whim....

With 6 and facing a possible 4 more I go at 70 on cruise control everywhere (dual carriage way only for the wits amongst us)  :D

But on the upside got a tax rebate of £660 today (glad it wasn't 666), so that's the lawyer taken care of just need the fine and costs taken care of now (who's pessamistic )

There's always the appeal

not a whim, its only reduced for the most serious of reasons.
When they are off budget  and their xmas bonus is in doubt.

Certainly the former, london scammers said they intended to do so for just that reason.

rgds
bill

Rearrange this not often enough heard statement

GUILTY NOT

[forum link] for my transcript